Newbie

[RickLewis]

OK, we've now created a logic section as requested. Have fun!

[Walgekaaren]

Hello I am Walgekaaren (means: White Raven)

I've stumbled on some interesting thoughts in here and decided to give it a go...
Am Christian Baptist, and fond of Nietzsche's and Kierkegaards filosophy.

Also am a writer and poet. Mostly write in estonian... so sorry if someone wants to know more, I have to translate into english then to share with you...

That should be all for now...

[chaz wyman]

Hello I am Walgekaaren (means: White Raven)

I've stumbled on some interesting thoughts in here and decided to give it a go...
Am Christian Baptist, and fond of Nietzsche's and Kierkegaards filosophy.

Also am a writer and poet. Mostly write in estonian... so sorry if someone wants to know more, I have to translate into english then to share with you...

That should be all for now...

3 questions.
1) How do you reconcile Nietzsche's philosophy with your Christianity?
2) As a Baptist, is it true that is if I do not get baptised I will rot in hell.
3) WHy does god require baptism?

[Walgekaaren]

"How do I reconsile N filosophy with C?"

Quite easy - I go on and dont stop on the road for sightseeing. Ok this is not the answer you expect from a typical Christian, but I'm not that kind of a man.
Simply imagine somebody taking the bible in the one hand and "Thus spoke Zarathustra" in the other hand and in the next moment putting the two hands together by saying "There is no spoon!" and voala there is a man with only one book...

By now you should be intelectually shocked and frustrated, to say the least... It goes even better.

For your next question: "Why does C require baptism in order to get to heaven?" I'll ask back "Does having a drivers license prevent you from driving people and make you a better person compared to a man who never made a drivers license, but drives exelently?"

The right answer, if you followed my thought, is: Yes, you dont need to be baptised in order to go to heaven, but you'll need it for the people, so everything is in order. You'll need it like Jesus needed it to be baptised by John, though Jesus was the son of God. For if you dont have it, its like dont having a drivers license and still driving a car.

Why should the ordinary people who usually dont know you, belive that your not dangerous, if you cannot proove your readiness to drive (by simply having the test; exams and get the license) then the same thing goes with baptism. There are so many people claiming to be Christian, and if there is no baptism how could you distinct true from false

Hell, some are even claiming to be Jesus Christ incarnated. I saw even here one such post... so without baptism you would always have to jump off the road, if you hear somebody shout: "A Christian is coming!" for you dont know is he gonna drive you or not.

Usually in a normal congregation, nobody gets baptised, til he has learned the bible by heart, (or in my example: made the drivers license) till the community accepts and verifies, that this is the real deal and not some child-molester or something.

You cannot go to hell for not being baptised for this simple reason, that there are people who there born before the passion event and the C religion establishment. So if it there true, that you'll needed to be paptised per se to be able to (in physical sence) enter heaven. This is the same as to say "The drivers license drives for me"

I know that some "Once saved; always saved" do believe so, but that doesnt change the point. Or what do you mean of it

[chaz wyman]

"How do I reconsile N filosophy with C?"

Quite easy - I go on and dont stop on the road for sightseeing. Ok this is not the answer you expect from a typical Christian, but I'm not that kind of a man.
Simply imagine somebody taking the bible in the one hand and "Thus spoke Zarathustra" in the other hand and in the next moment putting the two hands together by saying "There is no spoon!" and voala there is a man with only one book...

Unimaginable: N is matter and C is antimatter - one has to win over the other. Brign the two books together would annihilate both.


By now you should be intelectually shocked and frustrated, to say the least... It goes even better.

No, Just disappointed.

For your next question: "Why does C require baptism in order to get to heaven?" I'll ask back "Does having a drivers license prevent you from driving people and make you a better person compared to a man who never made a drivers license, but drives exelently?"

The right answer, if you followed my thought, is: Yes, you dont need to be baptised in order to go to heaven, but you'll need it for the people, so everything is in order. You'll need it like Jesus needed it to be baptised by John, though Jesus was the son of God. For if you dont have it, its like dont having a drivers license and still driving a car.

Why would god need this ridiculous ritual if he is able to see in the heart of every man?


Why should the ordinary people who usually dont know you, belive that your not dangerous, if you cannot proove your readiness to drive (by simply having the test; exams and get the license) then the same thing goes with baptism. There are so many people claiming to be Christian, and if there is no baptism how could you distinct true from false

You don't carry baptism on your forehead like a tattoo. Besides any idiot can wear a cross or get baptised - they don't nee to believe in god. So - I ask again; Why would god need this ridiculous ritual if he is able to see in the heart of every man?


Hell, some are even claiming to be Jesus Christ incarnated. I saw even here one such post... so without baptism you would always have to jump off the road, if you hear somebody shout: "A Christian is coming!" for you dont know is he gonna drive you or not.

Usually in a normal congregation, nobody gets baptised, til he has learned the bible by heart, (or in my example: made the drivers license) till the community accepts and verifies, that this is the real deal and not some child-molester or something.

Know the bible by heart? Rubbish!

You cannot go to hell for not being baptised for this simple reason, that there are people who there born before the passion event and the C religion establishment. So if it there true, that you'll needed to be paptised per se to be able to (in physical sence) enter heaven. This is the same as to say "The drivers license drives for me"

I know that some "Once saved; always saved" do believe so, but that doesnt change the point. Or what do you mean of it

I don't see any 'point' at all.

[Walgekaaren]

You don't carry baptism on your forehead like a tattoo. Besides any idiot can wear a cross or get baptised - they don't nee to believe in god. So - I ask again; Why would god need this ridiculous ritual if he is able to see in the heart of every man?

Why is that so that every idiot can be baptised? I cannot talk by your life so I am using mine. I dont think that everybody gets to be baptised. I come from a post-sovietic state there it was against the law even to attend a cermon or have Christmas, than to say to be baptised. Some congregations made they work by attending "Birthday partys" in their homes, in order to praise the Lord. Maybe in the US its different, I'm never been there. I had to wait from 6 years old, (1988-89) then I got my first experience of divine love and grace til the year 2003 on the first year of theology school then I was already 20,21 years old. Then I got baptised. The congregation I'm now belonging to, wanted to be verifiably shure in wieving my life that I mean, what I want and that this is not a teen-age recconing against his parents and home... After the collapse of the soviet union many entered the churches for it had the ring of "Freedom" on it. Not to mention the aid-packs distributed through there. Not all stayd Christian.

The timespan from the point I wanted to be Christian, and got to be Christian, was 14 years. The time I had to venture with all kinds of filosophy; occultism etc. Can you say that this was really easy, as like to wear a cross? Dont give me that.

Unimaginable: N is matter and C is antimatter - one has to win over the other. Brign the two books together would annihilate both.

I take it you havent read the bible prophets and compaired it with Z, for I have and Z is not against the Bible. You may translate it only that way if you read by word and not by meaning.

N used in his book so many biblequotes that I cannot begin to count em up to say there one starts and the other ends... N didnt care whether it was possible or not for a Christian to read him. In his time Christians flirted with the sentence "You can doubt everything" what was addressed by Kierkegaard, as nonsence for this sentence is also "everything" and open to doubt, but ironically this was protected of such criticism.

I don't see any 'point' at all.

Because you fail to realise that rules are needed in order to prevent malpractise and misuse. Do you also doubt marriage or the nescescity of laws, for all men are equal and good and know how to act rightfully? Baptism is one such rule, what demands attention, so you know what happens next and if you're ready for it...

[chaz wyman]

You don't carry baptism on your forehead like a tattoo. Besides any idiot can wear a cross or get baptised - they don't nee to believe in god. So - I ask again; Why would god need this ridiculous ritual if he is able to see in the heart of every man?

Why is that so that every idiot can be baptised? I cannot talk by your life so I am using mine. I dont think that everybody gets to be baptised. I come from a post-sovietic state there it was against the law even to attend a cermon or have Christmas, than to say to be baptised. Some congregations made they work by attending "Birthday partys" in their homes, in order to praise the Lord. Maybe in the US its different, I'm never been there. I had to wait from 6 years old, (1988-89) then I got my first experience of divine love and grace til the year 2003 on the first year of theology school then I was already 20,21 years old. Then I got baptised. The congregation I'm now belonging to, wanted to be verifiably shure in wieving my life that I mean, what I want and that this is not a teen-age recconing against his parents and home... After the collapse of the soviet union many entered the churches for it had the ring of "Freedom" on it. Not to mention the aid-packs distributed through there. Not all stayd Christian.

In the west any idiot can find a person to get him wet. John would dunk anyone who asked him and said they believed in god.
Why did you submit to this indignity? What possible difference can it make to god? All that stuff about the soviet has nothing to do with the point of the question.
By getting baptised you have exchanged one type of tyranny (the soviet) with another (god). Why don't you wan to be free?



The timespan from the point I wanted to be Christian, and got to be Christian, was 14 years. The time I had to venture with all kinds of filosophy; occultism etc. Can you say that this was really easy, as like to wear a cross? Dont give me that.

That is the stupidest thing I have read this week! Nothing can stop you being a Christian, a Satanist or a fool. All you have to do is be it.

Unimaginable: N is matter and C is antimatter - one has to win over the other. Brign the two books together would annihilate both.

I take it you havent read the bible prophets and compaired it with Z, for I have and Z is not against the Bible. You may translate it only that way if you read by word and not by meaning.

I've read the bible and Nietzsche. They are antithetical. For a start N rejects the existence of god, and demands that you shake off the yoke of god's tyranny. The bible demands that you are a slave to god. It seems you have not gathered much from your reading.


N used in his book so many biblequotes that I cannot begin to count em up to say there one starts and the other ends... N didnt care whether it was possible or not for a Christian to read him. In his time Christians flirted with the sentence "You can doubt everything" what was addressed by Kierkegaard, as nonsence for this sentence is also "everything" and open to doubt, but ironically this was protected of such criticism.

I don't see any 'point' at all.

Because you fail to realise that rules are needed in order to prevent malpractise and misuse.

Ha ha ha!!! Spoken like a true SOVIET. It seems Stalin has had his effect on you!

Do you also doubt marriage or the nescescity of laws, for all men are equal and good and know how to act rightfully? Baptism is one such rule, what demands attention, so you know what happens next and if you're ready for it...

So you are going to demand that we all get baptised. Will you send me to a Gulag is I refuse?

[Walgekaaren]

In the west any idiot can find a person to get him wet. John would dunk anyone who asked him and said they believed in god.
Why did you submit to this indignity? What possible difference can it make to god? All that stuff about the soviet has nothing to do with the point of the question.
By getting baptised you have exchanged one type of tyranny (the soviet) with another (god). Why don't you wan to be free?

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

So you see that John realy had an issue about baptising the Christ, besides Faith is freedom for me, so sad that you dont understand that... The verse is Matthew 3:1-15 from King James version via www.blueletterbible.org

That is the stupidest thing I have read this week! Nothing can stop you being a Christian, a Satanist or a fool. All you have to do is be it.

That is not true, for instance I cannot be the president of the United states of America because I havent met the nescessary conditionals, like being the citizen of US and Being elected by the citizens of the US... The same problem goes with being a Christian.
You can make a forged baptism like you can make a burglary into a shop to get money, but that money is not yours, and besides, if you get cought you get pennalised for misuse of tender (robbery) like you get publicly refused if you claim to be someone your not. Why is that so hard to understand?

I've read the bible and Nietzsche. They are antithetical. For a start N rejects the existence of god, and demands that you shake off the yoke of god's tyranny. The bible demands that you are a slave to god. It seems you have not gathered much from your reading.

As pointed out before, you read words not meanings. Do you mind to tell me why are you so mad at me, that I say "I am A Christian and like Nietzsches filosophy!" ?

So you are going to demand that we all get baptised. Will you send me to a Gulag is I refuse?

Please calm down now. I cant ask you to do such foolishness like I cannot ask you to be Obi-van Genobi. If you dont believe then you dont match the requirements of Christianity and thus the need of Baptism. For instance you cannot be marryed to a girl you dont like... Why is this so hard to understand? I dont get it...

[chaz wyman]

In the west any idiot can find a person to get him wet. John would dunk anyone who asked him and said they believed in god.
Why did you submit to this indignity? What possible difference can it make to god? All that stuff about the soviet has nothing to do with the point of the question.
By getting baptised you have exchanged one type of tyranny (the soviet) with another (god). Why don't you wan to be free?

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For [...] worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


It's just a story. Get over it!

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

So you see that John realy had an issue about baptising the Christ, besides Faith is freedom for me, so sad that you dont understand that... The verse is Matthew 3:1-15 from King James version via http://www.blueletterbible.org

That is the stupidest thing I have read this week! Nothing can stop you being a Christian, a Satanist or a fool. All you have to do is be it.

That is not true, for instance I cannot be the president of the United states of America because I havent met the nescessary conditionals, like being the citizen of US and Being elected by the citizens of the US... The same problem goes with being a Christian.

False analogy. Being a Christian is nothing like being President of the USA. There is nothing to stop me being a christian. All I have to do is believe in the fantasy. It is your mistake that you have to submit yourself to an organisation with formal rituals. The reason you do this is because you think like a Soviet. That is what I meant by Stalin has had his effect on you.

You can make a forged baptism like you can make a burglary into a shop to get money, but that money is not yours, and besides, if you get cought you get pennalised for misuse of tender (robbery) like you get publicly refused if you claim to be someone your not. Why is that so hard to understand?

Not relevant.

I've read the bible and Nietzsche. They are antithetical. For a start N rejects the existence of god, and demands that you shake off the yoke of god's tyranny. The bible demands that you are a slave to god. It seems you have not gathered much from your reading.

As pointed out before, you read words not meanings. Do you mind to tell me why are you so mad at me, that I say "I am A Christian and like Nietzsches filosophy!" ?

I'm, not mad at you. But it's like you have not read what I have written. If you think that Nietzsche is compatible with any form of xianty then you can argue the point with evidence. But, I just think you are misguided. You find the same comfort in Baptism that you had imposed on you by the Soviet. You have learned NOTHING from Nietzsche!

So you are going to demand that we all get baptised. Will you send me to a Gulag is I refuse?

Please calm down now. I cant ask you to do such foolishness like I cannot ask you to be Obi-van Genobi. If you dont believe then you dont match the requirements of Christianity and thus the need of Baptism. For instance you cannot be marryed to a girl you dont like... Why is this so hard to understand? I dont get it...

Urumph!

[Walgekaaren]

Who is a white raven to behold and care of
that you make a feast before the enemyes eyes?
I dont have a barn nor vinejard or great fields;
no slaves or servants; no donkeys and vine!
I dont share clothes and linen with my body! -
So why is it, that you love me, oh Lord Allmighty?
What do you want to say - this unseen; silent; omnious?

"The Unseen; The Silent; The Omnious! - These are the secret names of Lord God Allmighty!
Keep them good and shout them on the rooftops as Jesus has tought you!"

What is the sun to behold
or the moon to be jellos about
then an angel fell from heaven
he shouted: "God is dead!"

All I hear is: "You where not there for me
I needed you in my utmost despair,
but you didnt show up!"

The wise men hear it and say: "Well done, he's an Atheist, what a jolly good lad!"
The meek and humble hear it shouting: "My precious! - Hands off of my God!"

What do I care about them? I shall go on...
God still exists - like a father who hugs his only son...

My father divorsed himself and I was born a bastard outside of marriage,
doctors offered an abortion as coup de grace,
because of a defect gene;
the Godly gene...
A woman had mercy on me - isn't life wonderfull!

The doctors insisted: "But he'll still not make it past 16!"
I'm 29 now and think: "What do they see..." and roll my eyes.
Is Nietzsche a lunatic or a poet or am I what?
But God still loves me, like a wise men once said about the earth
"It's still moving!"

The rulers mocked in vanity:
"The earth is flat! Nay, how can it move then,
is it a wagon then, and what drives it?"

Now these wise men cover in emberasment saying:
"The Church made me say it!"

The rulers are the same, even without church and godliness
the same ill tempered faces judging me on their pulpits.
Is it Communism or Democrasy; The courts of Russia;
Brussels sprouts or American dreams? - What's the difference?
My relic is "Freedom" like a brave heart shouted

Seen with childrens eyes
worn with camels humps
laughed in the mouths of lions
who laugh themself -
There is always "Freedom" for them...

They have time to play on the beach and seashells
to make a new song while humming on a picture they drew
just a sandfigure, washed up by waves...

Whitch crumpy old man dears to shout to a childs soul:
"What have you done, you naughty boy!
This isn't art, nor literature - this is garbage!"

As was told Nietzsche before, then he used to sit in the dirt
as he waited for Mr. Moneybag to end his dinner with Tiffany
He held his hat in one hand and Zarathustra in the other pleading:
"Dear Sir, would you mind to read my new novel, I shall be a famous poet one day..."

But Mr. Moneybag grinned behind his biggy stomack and couldnt stomack the look of it.
"I have seen and heard many like you, who wonder these lands and bother honest people!
Out out, you damn spit!" Later his sons and doughters congratulate eachover on his last will
"What great man was our Father in Heathen, how he took and got rich with that poor awfull crook, who wrote poetry in our gates. He should be gratefull to be remembered!"

The poets never get credit or remembrance
for what they have to say is fire in a land of water
how it wants to burn water to make new water...
They are the field that the Lords servants wander,
there they pluck the rie and there the wise men shout:
"This is not a fitting conduct for men of faith, oh holy day!"

Any other questions how I can read the bible and Zarathustra together?

[chaz wyman]

Who is a white raven to behold and care of
that you make a feast before the enemyes eyes?
I dont have a barn nor vinejard or great fields;
no slaves or servants; no donkeys and vine!
I dont share clothes and linen with my body! -
So why is it, that you love me, oh Lord Allmighty?
What do you want to say - this unseen; silent; omnious?

"The Unseen; The Silent; The Omnious! - These are the secret names of Lord God Allmighty!
Keep them good and shout them on the rooftops as Jesus has tought you!"

What is the sun to behold
or the moon to be jellos about
then an angel fell from heaven
he shouted: "God is dead!"

All I hear is: "You where not there for me
I needed you in my utmost despair,
but you didnt show up!"

The wise men hear it and say: "Well done, he's an Atheist, what a jolly good lad!"
The meek and humble hear it shouting: "My precious! - Hands off of my God!"

What do I care about them? I shall go on...
God still exists - like a father who hugs his only son...

My father divorsed himself and I was born a bastard outside of marriage,
doctors offered an abortion as coup de grace,
because of a defect gene;
the Godly gene...
A woman had mercy on me - isn't life wonderfull!

The doctors insisted: "But he'll still not make it past 16!"
I'm 29 now and think: "What do they see..." and roll my eyes.
Is Nietzsche a lunatic or a poet or am I what?
But God still loves me, like a wise men once said about the earth
"It's still moving!"

The rulers mocked in vanity:
"The earth is flat! Nay, how can it move then,
is it a wagon then, and what drives it?"

Now these wise men cover in emberasment saying:
"The Church made me say it!"

The rulers are the same, even without church and godliness
the same ill tempered faces judging me on their pulpits.
Is it Communism or Democrasy; The courts of Russia;
Brussels sprouts or American dreams? - What's the difference?
My relic is "Freedom" like a brave heart shouted

Seen with childrens eyes
worn with camels humps
laughed in the mouths of lions
who laugh themself -
There is always "Freedom" for them...

They have time to play on the beach and seashells
to make a new song while humming on a picture they drew
just a sandfigure, washed up by waves...

Whitch crumpy old man dears to shout to a childs soul:
"What have you done, you naughty boy!
This isn't art, nor literature - this is garbage!"

As was told Nietzsche before, then he used to sit in the dirt
as he waited for Mr. Moneybag to end his dinner with Tiffany
He held his hat in one hand and Zarathustra in the other pleading:
"Dear Sir, would you mind to read my new novel, I shall be a famous poet one day..."

But Mr. Moneybag grinned behind his biggy stomack and couldnt stomack the look of it.
"I have seen and heard many like you, who wonder these lands and bother honest people!
Out out, you damn spit!" Later his sons and doughters congratulate eachover on his last will
"What great man was our Father in Heathen, how he took and got rich with that poor awfull crook, who wrote poetry in our gates. He should be gratefull to be remembered!"

The poets never get credit or remembrance
for what they have to say is fire in a land of water
how it wants to burn water to make new water...
They are the field that the Lords servants wander,
there they pluck the rie and there the wise men shout:
"This is not a fitting conduct for men of faith, oh holy day!"

Any other questions how I can read the bible and Zarathustra together?

ANSWER: By ignoring many of the messages in both books, and by cherry-picking the rest. The result being that you are neither a Christian nor a Nietszchean.