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Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 3:15 pm
by Flannel Jesus
attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 3:06 pm
As far as I am concerned any notion of a God as a creator that doesn't have any thought of what it is doing in it's creation should be in the definition of a loony bin - panstoopid - panatheism for a couple of examples.
THEISM pertains to a God of intelligence.
I don't like this use of the word "God" either. I wouldn't go as far as to call it crazy or stupid, but as I've said before, it's definitely not ideal for clarity.
"God" as a term should imo be reserved to refer to a class of thinking beings, and theism for belief in the existence of such beings. But... the ship has sailed for the term pantheism - it's pervasive enough that it means what it means, there's no chance of rescuing it or asking the pantheists to use another label. I personally don't put that type of belief in the category of "theistic", so I'm left with the messy labelling system where some "x-theists" aren't "theists". I'll live with that.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 3:22 pm
by attofishpi
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 3:15 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 3:06 pm
As far as I am concerned any notion of a God as a creator that doesn't have any thought of what it is doing in it's creation should be in the definition of a loony bin - panstoopid - panatheism for a couple of examples.
THEISM pertains to a God of intelligence.
I don't like this use of the word "God" either. I wouldn't go as far as to call it crazy or stupid, but as I've said before, it's definitely not ideal for clarity.
"God" as a term should imo be reserved to refer to a class of thinking beings, and theism for belief in the existence of such beings. But... the ship has sailed for the term pantheism - it's pervasive enough that it means what it means, there's no chance of rescuing it or asking the pantheists to use another label. I personally don't put that type of belief in the category of "theistic", so I'm left with the messy labelling system where some "x-theists" aren't "theists". I'll live with that.
What about panentheism - I had to label myself that for the 'personable God' effect - fuck that too since God entity has to be beyond the universe.
Both are ridiculous.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 4:56 pm
by Flannel Jesus
attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 3:06 pm
As far as I am concerned any notion of a God as a creator that doesn't have any thought of what it is doing in it's creation should be in the definition of a loony bin - panstoopid - panatheism for a couple of examples.
THEISM pertains to a God of intelligence.
Some people in the pantheism subreddit have thoughts that pertain to that:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pantheism/comm ... ferencing/
In particular I like this comment:
God is a word that has far too much religious baggage attached. Reframe the thought. Refer to the universe as the universe. Marvel at the phenomenal living entity that it is... chaotic, without personality... without judgement. It is the source of everything that exists. Within the limited context of religion, it is what people refer to as God, and they try to give it a beard and tell other people what it thinks.
Like most -isms, there's as many varieties of pantheism as there are pantheists
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 11:24 pm
by popeye1945
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:20 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:56 pm
Yes. What you describe is the problem I have with Spinoza, that Deus sive Natura is understood by means of reason not sympathy. Sympathy and reason however are not mutually exclusive.
Interesting, no they certainly are not mutually exclusive. The reasoning of self-interest in identifying the self with other selves, leads to compassion, sympathy, and I believe love is perfect sympathy. The fact that all organisms are open systems should make the extended concept of the self, self- evident, and like the Buddha, we are then born at the level of the heart.
"The extended concept of the self" and "all organisms are open systems" do correlate both scientifically and psychologically. Can this be taught? Which religious sects teach it and which don't?
The Synagogue that could not tolerate Spinoza was not universalistic as compared with the sort of Christians who welcomed Spinoza after the Synagogue threw him out.
I do not know if a particular religion teaches this, I came by the understanding in a rather hodge-podge way, reading over many years. There certainly is an element of it in Schopenhauer. I am sure there must be a number of religions that touch on it in different ways. Well, tolerance does not belong to a particular group, at least the synagogue did not put out a contract on his life. The Christians with Mister Eckhard certainly did, only he died before they could get to him.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 11:17 am
by Belinda
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 11:24 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:20 pm
Interesting, no they certainly are not mutually exclusive. The reasoning of self-interest in identifying the self with other selves, leads to compassion, sympathy, and I believe love is perfect sympathy. The fact that all organisms are open systems should make the extended concept of the self, self- evident, and like the Buddha, we are then born at the level of the heart.
"The extended concept of the self" and "all organisms are open systems" do correlate both scientifically and psychologically. Can this be taught? Which religious sects teach it and which don't?
The Synagogue that could not tolerate Spinoza was not universalistic as compared with the sort of Christians who welcomed Spinoza after the Synagogue threw him out.
I do not know if a particular religion teaches this, I came by the understanding in a rather hodge-podge way, reading over many years. There certainly is an element of it in Schopenhauer. I am sure there must be a number of religions that touch on it in different ways. Well, tolerance does not belong to a particular group, at least the synagogue did not put out a contract on his life. The Christians with Mister Eckhard certainly did, only he died before they could get to him.
The particular Christian sect that were friends with Spinoza and which S joined for a few years were Collegian Christians .These were Anabaptists who were the cultural forerunners of Amish, Quakers, and other such liberal sects.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 3:57 pm
by popeye1945
Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:17 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 11:24 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:43 am
"The extended concept of the self" and "all organisms are open systems" do correlate both scientifically and psychologically. Can this be taught? Which religious sects teach it and which don't?
The Synagogue that could not tolerate Spinoza was not universalistic as compared with the sort of Christians who welcomed Spinoza after the Synagogue threw him out.
I do not know if a particular religion teaches this, I came by the understanding in a rather hodge-podge way, reading over many years. There certainly is an element of it in Schopenhauer. I am sure there must be a number of religions that touch on it in different ways. Well, tolerance does not belong to a particular group, at least the synagogue did not put out a contract on his life. The Christians with Mister Eckhard certainly did, only he died before they could get to him.
The particular Christian sect that were friends with Spinoza and which S joined for a few years were Collegian Christians. These were Anabaptists who were the cultural forerunners of Amish, Quakers, and other such liberal sects.
Glad to hear he wasn't in complete isolation, how is it they did not think of him as an atheist?
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 2:41 pm
by Belinda
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 3:57 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:17 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 11:24 pm
I do not know if a particular religion teaches this, I came by the understanding in a rather hodge-podge way, reading over many years. There certainly is an element of it in Schopenhauer. I am sure there must be a number of religions that touch on it in different ways. Well, tolerance does not belong to a particular group, at least the synagogue did not put out a contract on his life. The Christians with Mister Eckhard certainly did, only he died before they could get to him.
The particular Christian sect that were friends with Spinoza and which S joined for a few years were Collegian Christians. These were Anabaptists who were the cultural forerunners of Amish, Quakers, and other such liberal sects.
Glad to hear he wasn't in complete isolation, how is it they did not think of him as an atheist?
Because S was not an atheist. He was truly "God-obsessed". His was not the personal God of conventional Jews or Christians but was impersonal Nature.
As a Unitarian I have no difficulty believing in a deity founded on reason.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Thu May 25, 2023 2:09 am
by popeye1945
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:41 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 3:57 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:17 am
The particular Christian sect that were friends with Spinoza and which S joined for a few years were Collegian Christians. These were Anabaptists who were the cultural forerunners of Amish, Quakers, and other such liberal sects.
Glad to hear he wasn't in complete isolation, how is it they did not think of him as an atheist?
Because S was not an atheist. He was truly "God-obsessed". His was not the personal God of conventional Jews or Christians but was impersonal Nature.
As a Unitarian I have no difficulty believing in a deity founded on reason.
Of course, to them he would have been an atheist, neither Jew nor Christian believed in God as nature. Christians in some places were still burning them at the steak were they not?
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Thu May 25, 2023 11:34 am
by Belinda
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 2:09 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:41 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 3:57 pm
Glad to hear he wasn't in complete isolation, how is it they did not think of him as an atheist?
Because S was not an atheist. He was truly "God-obsessed". His was not the personal God of conventional Jews or Christians but was impersonal Nature.
As a Unitarian I have no difficulty believing in a deity founded on reason.
Of course, to them he would have been an atheist, neither Jew nor Christian believed in God as nature. Christians in some places were still burning them at the steak were they not?
The usage of 'atheist' is totally to denigrate. The word denotes nothing. Socrates was accused of being an atheist because they thought he belittled the gods of Athens.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:58 pm
by popeye1945
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 11:34 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 2:09 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 2:41 pm
Because S was not an atheist. He was truly "God-obsessed". His was not the personal God of conventional Jews or Christians but was impersonal Nature.
As a Unitarian I have no difficulty believing in a deity founded on reason.
Of course, to them he would have been an atheist, neither Jew nor Christian believed in God as nature. Christians in some places were still burning them at the steak were they not?
The usage of 'atheist' is totally to denigrate. The word denotes nothing. Socrates was accused of being an atheist because they thought he belittled the gods of Athens.
Reminds me of a statement by Sam Harris, there is no word for a non-believing astrologist, so why a non-believing subject of religion/mythology?
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Thu May 25, 2023 8:54 pm
by Belinda
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 5:58 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 11:34 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 2:09 am
Of course, to them he would have been an atheist, neither Jew nor Christian believed in God as nature. Christians in some places were still burning them at the steak were they not?
The usage of 'atheist' is totally to denigrate. The word denotes nothing. Socrates was accused of being an atheist because they thought he belittled the gods of Athens.
Reminds me of a statement by Sam Harris, there is no word for a non-believing astrologist, so why a non-believing subject of religion/mythology?
It's because people who bow down to old -established authority feel embattled.(Astrologers don't possess real authority, even less these days)
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 6:21 am
by popeye1945
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 8:54 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 5:58 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 11:34 am
The usage of 'atheist' is totally to denigrate. The word denotes nothing. Socrates was accused of being an atheist because they thought he belittled the gods of Athens.
Reminds me of a statement by Sam Harris, there is no word for a non-believing astrologist, so why a non-believing subject of religion/mythology?
It's because people who bow down to old -established authority feel embattled. (Astrologers don't possess real authority, even less these days)
Interesting, the embattled believer identifying the enemy, the anti-Christ, in the case of Christians. I believe it was Huxley, Darwin's bulldog that came up with the term, agnostic.
Re: Was Spinoza Actually An Atheist?
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:17 pm
by mariaflores
Spinoza's concept of 'God' may not align with traditional theistic views, but his pantheistic belief in a universal, impersonal force doesn't necessarily make him an atheist. It's a nuanced discussion worth exploring.