free will via a different context...

[Age]

K: and does religion/god offer us any free will? nope, none at all....
make your argument over the thesis statement which is free will...
not atheism....

Kropotkin

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...

This one believes, and absolutely, that its own misinterpretations of things here are the only choices one can choose from, and just as bad is that this one believes, again absolutely, that there are only two things to choose from, only.

This one appears to have never ever considered that the only two choices that it claims are possible to choose from could bother be just False and Wrong misinterpretations anyway.

the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

This one, obviously,is holding the completely False and Wrong interpretation/s only here.

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

What a Truly absurd and CLOSED way to 'look at' and 'see' things here.

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....

There are countless other choices or interpretations to 'look at' and 'see'. But, of course, one would have to be OPEN to 'other things' other than the 'two only'.

so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

Just maybe the 'threat' or 'promise' perspective works perfectly, that is; if one chooses to consider that 'just maybe my strongly held views, beliefs, or interpretations might just be False, Wrong, inaccurate, and/or Incorrect.

And, one will never ever know if they do not become OPEN and consider that just maybe their 'current' views, beliefs, interpretations, or presumptions could be False, Wrong, et cetera here.

[Harbal]

don't feel sorry... engage in the values
you believe in or don't believe in... instead of just going with the ''flow''
how about trying philosophy...

Oh no, Kropotkin, I know my limitations.

K: I have a basic philosophy in which I reach for something that is
unreachable... I don't try to get something easy or on the lower branch..
I aim for the stars, for heaven as it were.... my hero is Icarus...
to fly so close to the sun that I am burned.. I have no problem with
that... my problem is that anyone, anyone can play it safe and easy,
we have taken the wrong lesson from Icarus... to do anything great or
bold, we have to take the risk of flying too close to the sun.. and I would
rather burn flying too close the sun, then be safe and cautious by risking a little
or nothing at all...more than once, I have tossed the diced and so far,
anyway, I have won.... a couple of the dice tosses were life and death calls,
so, I have risked and won... one day, I will lose and so what?
it's not like I am going to live forever, right?


Kropotkin

And the record will show you took the blows, and did it your way, Kropotkin.

[Age]

Kropotkin: this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

Harbal: No, Kropotkin, I have adapted to the world; it wasn't the other way round.


K: and I feel sorry for you..

Thank you.

K: and still missing the point.. don't feel sorry... engage in the values
you believe in or don't believe in... instead of just going with the ''flow''
how about trying philosophy...

as or as Nietzsche said...

" it is not enough to have the courage of our convictions,
but courage enough for an attack upon our convictions'''

Kropotkin

Do you have any actual 'convictions' here "yourself" "peter kropotkin"?

Or, do you continually just want to talk and write about 'thinking about things'?

[Age]

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...
the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....
so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

Talk about a bunch of 'non sequiturz'

I have experienced HELL (via the wrath of God) and I have experienced HEAVEN.

While in HELL there is no satan - I called out for the twat. God is both sides of the coin. The sage that occasionally talks to me from the aether is clearly in HEAVEN (on Earth) Christ that went to his death to give us some faith in there being more to the reality than ya know "pushing a rock up a hill" for it to roll back down when we die - as per your OP - is likely to be friends with the sages.

I did not require a reward\punishment consideration for my initial belief in God - I just had an epiphany around the age of 7 when someone in the playground said there is no God, after all the kids went back to class I stared out at the vast expanse of the sports field and the trees in the distance and realised there was far more to reality than meet the eye - it was profound - years later when learning about atoms and subatomic reality it's as if I realised at that point at the age of 7 the fact that there are building blocks to reality and its plausible that there is an intelligence behind it.

Now, I no longer believe as since 1997 God has made itself aware to me such that I KNOW it exists, that there is indeed an intelligence to the construct of our reality.

How do you, supposedly, 'know' this?

For even you say that there 'it' could be either of two things. Just like "peter kropotkin", to you, there is a choice of, supposedly, only two things, only.

And, even if there was a choice of only two things, only, which obviously there is not, you still do not yet 'know' which one of those 'it' is. So, why you also claim to 'know' that there is indeed an intelligence to the construct of, so-called, 'our' reality?

To me, if one claims to 'know' some thing, then they must already have the irrefutable proof for said claim. Other-wise they do 'not know'.

So, what is your actual proof for KNOWING 'it exists', exactly?

I believe God instilled the faith when I was 7 through my consciousness such that I had that epiphany.

God instilled things in bodies before they existed for seven long years.

I know also that there is great reason it hides evidence

But no evidence nor proof is 'hidden'.

you older human beings, in the days when this is being written anyway, just block and prevent "yourselves" from 'seeing' the actual Reality, and Truth.

This is not your fault, however. This was just caused by False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect 'teachings' and 'methods or ways of teaching'.

See, young children 'see' the Truth of things. Like "attofishpi" and others have partly written about here from their childhood experiences. However, this Truth gets overridden by False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect teachings and claims.

and insists on everyone having faith such that we should act morally with the back thought that there COULD be a God that does punish.

Absolutely nothing insists that you human beings do or do not do absolutely anything. Doing so would completely contradict any notion of 'free will'.

Once again, you human beings are absolutely free to choose to say or do or not say or do whatever you do please.

BTW. Cite evidence from the Bible of your statement "to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan..."

[attofishpi]

There is nothing more annoying and pointless than getting a notification when it's from an Age post.

[Age]

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...
the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....
so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

Talk about a bunch of 'non sequiturz'

I have experienced HELL (via the wrath of God) and I have experienced HEAVEN.

While in HELL there is no satan - I called out for the twat. God is both sides of the coin. The sage that occasionally talks to me from the aether is clearly in HEAVEN (on Earth) Christ that went to his death to give us some faith in there being more to the reality than ya know "pushing a rock up a hill" for it to roll back down when we die - as per your OP - is likely to be friends with the sages.

I did not require a reward\punishment consideration for my initial belief in God - I just had an epiphany around the age of 7 when someone in the playground said there is no God, after all the kids went back to class I stared out at the vast expanse of the sports field and the trees in the distance and realised there was far more to reality than meet the eye - it was profound - years later when learning about atoms and subatomic reality it's as if I realised at that point at the age of 7 the fact that there are building blocks to reality and its plausible that there is an intelligence behind it.

Now, I no longer believe as since 1997 God has made itself aware to me such that I KNOW it exists, that there is indeed an intelligence to the construct of our reality. I believe God instilled the faith when I was 7 through my consciousness such that I had that epiphany. I know also that there is great reason it hides evidence and insists on everyone having faith such that we should act morally with the back thought that there COULD be a God that does punish.

BTW. Cite evidence from the Bible of your statement "to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan..."

K: let me tell you a story of my youth...

I was living in Florida at the time.. I was around 10 or 11, perhaps...
and I was in school one day, when someone, a boy I think, announced
that he believed in god...the class itself even clapped for the kid...
(apparently, Florida hasn't changed much in 50 plus years)
anyway, I stood up and said, there was no god.. I don't know why..
and I certainly didn't have any reason for or against, it just seemed
intuitively wrong that there was a god.. the teacher immediately
sent the class on recess and I was given a fairly good beating on
the school grounds with the teacher watching but refusing to interfere,
cause us heathens needed to be taught a lesson... right?

Again, and, exactly, as I just said and pointed out above here. Young children 'see' the actual Truth of things. That is; until they are 'taught' to 'see' things differently, which then they grow up preventing and blocking "themselves" from being able to see things clearly and as exactly how they are. That is; Reality and Truth is blocked and prevented from being 'seen' and understood by False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect thinking, views, assumptions, or beliefs, which were 'learned' and/or have come from False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect 'past experiences' and 'teachings'.

Exactly like how you adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, are 'teaching' children to think, view, assume, or believe False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect 'things' also.

anyway, a few years later, I was living in California.. about age 16 or 17, or so...
and the problem came up again, not in the form of a schoolyard beating,
but in a book... I was pretty sure the book was wrong, about how
people/races were created by both climate and geology, geography,
but I didn't have the knowledge to prove this book wrong.. and so,
that book, the name escapes me, it was 50 years ago...
I began my search into history and biology and science and eventually
philosophy... which leads me into today...

I am equally certain that god doesn't exist..

So, you are equally certain that God does not exist, and thus did not create you human beings, as you are certain that you human beings are created by climate, geology, and geography right?

If yes, then how do you imagine that you human beings came to be created, exactly?

and I too have
been equally punished and have equally experienced heaven..
but not as you did, supernaturally, with no evidence of any kind,
but my punishment and pleasure was by nature and human beings...

I am as equally certain that there is no god, as you are equally convinced
that there is a god...I have a far better argument for my position than
you do for yours... and why? because where is the evidence for your
position?

Where is the 'evidence' for yours?

And, why do you people even talk about 'evidence', only, when it comes to these things? I found obtaining and having actual 'proof', instead, far more rewarding, as well as irrefutable.

a vision you had years ago when you were a child...apparently
under the influence of certain drugs, you too can feel and even touch
god... I hold that is just as valid as your vision is too...
but if god can be created, with the use of drugs, that creates
hallucinations, then how much belief can we give this god of yours?
perhaps you were just a child with an active imagination? I've known
those children too... your faith is based on visions and hope...
I don't hold onto hope or faith.. they are very bad judge of
character...

you even said and stated;
I stood up and said, there was no god.. I don't know why..
and I certainly didn't have any reason for or against, it just seemed
intuitively wrong that there was a god..

So, when you believe some thing is true, of which you have absolutely no evidence nor proof for, then this is not an 'active imagination', but when "attofishpi" or another believes the opposite, then it is 'they' who have an 'active imagination'.

as for me, I can hold my head high with the knowledge that
there isn't any type of evidence or fact that can support your
position....

Although you have absolutely no type of evidence or fact that can support your position, right?

Or, do you believe you do have some evidence or fact that can support your position? And, if you do, then will you provide 'that' here?

If no, then why not?

I don't need any evidence or facts... I can simply
look around me and see the trees and grass and the stars
moving in the heavens and I don't need a hypothesis of god
to make that work...

Oh, okay here is the attempt at 'justification' and 'rationalization'.

This one 'looks at' and 'sees' the exact same things, which others do, but concludes that it does not need any evidence nor facts at all for its already obtained and strongly held onto position and belief. But, the others do need evidence and facts for their opposing positions and beliefs in regards to where all of those exact same things came from.

These adult human beings become more CLOSED and RIGID the more they divulge and reveal here.

Darwin makes just as much more sense of
existence then god does and Darwin takes a whole lot less
faith to believe in... you are just taking everything on faith..
and I know, know that faith is a fickle bitch... that can turn
on you any moment... been there, done that.....

so, please take the heaven and god on faith...
I have something firmer, reality....

Kropotkin

Ah, so "peter kropotkin" 'sees' and 'knows' 'reality', whereas it believes that "attofishpi" and others do not 'see' and do not 'know' 'actual reality', itself.

It is quite amusing how every one claims to 'see' and 'know' 'reality', while it is 'the others', with opposing views and beliefs, who do not 'see' and do not 'know' 'reality'.

[Age]

don't feel sorry... engage in the values
you believe in or don't believe in... instead of just going with the ''flow''
how about trying philosophy...

Oh no, Kropotkin, I know my limitations.

K: I have a basic philosophy in which I reach for something that is
unreachable... I don't try to get something easy or on the lower branch..
I aim for the stars, for heaven as it were.... my hero is Icarus...
to fly so close to the sun that I am burned.. I have no problem with
that... my problem is that anyone, anyone can play it safe and easy,
we have taken the wrong lesson from Icarus... to do anything great or
bold, we have to take the risk of flying too close to the sun.. and I would
rather burn flying too close the sun, then be safe and cautious by risking a little
or nothing at all...more than once, I have tossed the diced and so far,
anyway, I have won.... a couple of the dice tosses were life and death calls,
so, I have risked and won... one day, I will lose and so what?
it's not like I am going to live forever, right?


Kropotkin

you claim to have so-called 'tossed the dice', and have, supposedly, 'won', as some would say, but you will not talk about nor refer to what that or they things actually were.

Anyway, within this forum you are not 'tossing the dice', as some would say, because you do not express any 'actual conviction'. Thus, you do not even have the courage to express a conviction here, let alone have enough courage to have 'your conviction' attacked, questioned and challenged.

you may well say that you so-call 'reach for the stars', but you have never actually ever shown that you have done this here.

[Age]

I am as equally certain that there is no god, as you are equally convinced
that there is a god...

Kropotkin, if you were equally certain then you would KNOW without a shadow of a DO_U_BT that God does not exist.

I have a far better argument for my position than
you do for yours... and why? because where is the evidence for your
position? a vision you had years ago when you were a child..

I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

So, please do provide your evidence that the is NO God.

Because there is, supposedly, some thing that is, supposedly, statistical improvable, then this does not necessarily mean that there is ' an intelligence' behind 'all-there-is' '.

Because you alone 'see' 'complexities and intricacies' in language does not necessarily mean that there is ' an intelligence' behind 'all-there-is' '.

For, you could just have already believed that there is ' an intelligence behind 'all-there-is' ', which you obviously already did have, and then just found or 'saw' so-called 'evidence', which then you believe fits in with your already obtained and gained belief/s.

If others are not 'seeing' what you claim is 'evidence' for some thing, then this is a sign that either 'they are blind' or that actually what you claim is 'evidence' is not 'actual evidence' at all.

And, from the way you have spoken and written here, it could never be a case of the latter, to you, correct?

so, please take the heaven and god on faith...
I have something firmer, reality....

REAL_IT_Y is not something firm Kropotkin, it can easily be manipulated by God.

Can 'it' be manipulated by you 'seeing' human beings?

Or, is it just the case that God manipulates things so that some believe God exists while making others believe that God does not exist?

And, if this is the case, then why would absolutely any thing even want to do this?

[Peter Kropotkin]

I am as equally certain that there is no god, as you are equally convinced
that there is a god...

Atto: Kropotkin, if you were equally certain then you would KNOW without a shadow of a DO_U_BT that God does not exist.

K: and therein lies the difference between us.. I don't need to be certain
or to have certainty that something exists... either it does or it doesn't..
and I am not afraid of the in-between.. I have no fear of Schrödinger's cat...
as I have grown older, I have become far more aware of the random
and chaotic nature of the universe...chance and randomness rules
our world as much as our planning does and therein lies another
problem.. you mistake this randomness for god.. I just call it
chance or being random.. stuff happens outside of our hands, but
that doesn't mean god or religion or the universe beckons..
it is just the random nature of the universe... and that isn't god or
the wonders of the universe.. it is just the random brick dropping on
your head...no rhyme or reason...

Peter Kropotkin: I have a far better argument for my position than
you do for yours... and why? because where is the evidence for your
position? a vision you had years ago when you were a child..

Atto: I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

K: evidence enough for you, I am sure.. you have a need for certainty,
that I do not need.. the universe is random, chaotic and very, very
messy... I don't mind it being a messy and random universe...
it kinda fits who I am...

Atto: So, please do provide your evidence that the is NO God.

K: there is a beauty in being an atheist.. I don't need to provide evidence
for something that doesn't exist... how does one prove, that something
doesn't exists? how does one prove ''nothing'' exists? I can prove that at one
time dinosaurs existed, I have bones and other evidence, I can prove that
at one time, all the continents were connected to each other... because
there is evidence.. even if the evidence is rather specialized..
it is vastly easier to prove something exists, than to prove that something
doesn't exists.... 

Peter Kropotkin: so, please take the heaven and god on faith...
I have something firmer, reality....

Atto: REAL_IT_Y is not something firm Kropotkin, it can easily be manipulated by God.

K: so goes the argument from Descartes.. that some god manipulates the
evidence EVEN in my head as to the existence of something... but how
does that god go about proving something doesn't exists?

reality isn't firm, that is kinda my point... but you need certainty in
existence... that your god provides you... and that is great, for you...
reality is just as much about randomness and chance as it is about
the stars and planets and trees and people... evolution requires
randomness to even work... which is why evolution is a far more
likely theory of human existence... for how do you explain chance
and randomness in the universe? everything is determined in the universe
except human choice, our free will... umm, that creates some
difficulties if thought about.... so, don't think about it... you might
find yourself in doubt...

Kropotkin

[Age]

There is nothing more annoying and pointless than getting a notification when it's from an Age post.

Because you being questioned and challenged over 'your convictions' is Truly annoying, to you, and which you find pointless because you believe, absolutely, that what you believe here is true here is absolutely true.

At least you put 'your convictions', your claims of 'evidence', forward here to be 'attacked'.

"peter kropotkin", laughingly, believes that it does not need absolutely any 'evidence' nor 'facts' at all here for its belief/s here. "peter kropotkin" believes that it 'sees' and 'knows' 'reality', absolutely. And that 'that' is all that is needed here.

[attofishpi]

Atto: I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

K: evidence enough for you, I am sure.. you have a need for certainty,
that I do not need.. the universe is random, chaotic and very, very
messy... I don't mind it being a messy and random universe...
it kinda fits who I am...

everything is determined in the universe
except human choice, our free will... umm, that creates some
difficulties if thought about.... so, don't think about it... you might
find yourself in doubt...

DO_U_BT <-- BT is my true initials in this strange REAL_IT_Y God had me labelled. LIFE OF BRIAN T.

Science confirms EVERYTHING is NOT determined in the universe per quantum indeterminacy.

I don't care that you don't believe my account of empirical evidence provided to ME of God since 1997. The fact that you overlook and mock the clear evidence I provide in Divine Etymology Argument proves an intellectual shortcoming on your part.

we spend our lives pushing rocks up the hill, to only end in death,
with the rock now rolling back to the ground and picked up by
a new generation... and for all existence, for all people, we spend
our human existence simply pushing rocks uphill, only to have
them roll back downhill at our death...and so on and so forth,
till the end of time...

You just keep pushing that rock Kropotkin. It seems the fact that God exists you will not discover this lifetime and all you believe of this life is that it ends in an eternal non-existence. I KNOW the contrary is true.

[Age]

I am as equally certain that there is no god, as you are equally convinced
that there is a god...

Atto: Kropotkin, if you were equally certain then you would KNOW without a shadow of a DO_U_BT that God does not exist.

K: and therein lies the difference between us.. I don't need to be certain
or to have certainty that something exists... either it does or it doesn't..
and I am not afraid of the in-between.. I have no fear of Schrödinger's cat...
as I have grown older, I have become far more aware of the random
and chaotic nature of the universe...chance and randomness rules
our world as much as our planning does and therein lies another
problem.. you mistake this randomness for god.. I just call it
chance or being random.. stuff happens outside of our hands, but
that doesn't mean god or religion or the universe beckons..
it is just the random nature of the universe... and that isn't god or
the wonders of the universe.. it is just the random brick dropping on
your head...no rhyme or reason...

Peter Kropotkin: I have a far better argument for my position than
you do for yours... and why? because where is the evidence for your
position? a vision you had years ago when you were a child..

Atto: I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

K: evidence enough for you, I am sure.. you have a need for certainty,
that I do not need.. the universe is random, chaotic and very, very
messy... I don't mind it being a messy and random universe...
it kinda fits who I am...

This here shows "peter kropotkin's" need for 'certainty' as well.

"peter kropotkin" is 'certain' that the Universe is 'random, chaotic, and very, very messy'.

And, it believes, and is certain about, this so much that it does not even need any actual evidence, facts, nor proof for this. "peter kropotkin" has decided to believe so much that this is absolutely true, and "peter kropotkin" is absolutely certain of this.

These two here "attofishpi" and "peter kropotkin" are arguing and fighting with each other and over 'things' here that they both have zero proof for.

Atto: So, please do provide your evidence that the is NO God.

K: there is a beauty in being an atheist.. I don't need to provide evidence
for something that doesn't exist...

Maybe not. But, then one might also make the claim that they do not need to provide evidence for something that does exist, also.

But, what I suggest is if one wants to claim any thing, then they at least they have the actual proof for their claim, first, before they make their claim public.

how does one prove, that something
doesn't exists?

But, formulating a sound and valid argument.

Also, I find that it is the claim, itself, 'that some 'thing' does not exist', that needs to be proved, first.

For example, if you want to claim that some 'thing' does not exist, then what proof do you have that made you believe, or know, that 'that thing' does not exist?

how does one prove ''nothing'' exists?

This is, obviously, and absolute impossibility. And, to even claim that 'nothing exits', as in 'there is absolutely nothing only' is just beyond being absurd and ridiculous anyway.

I can prove that at one
time dinosaurs existed, I have bones and other evidence, I can prove that
at one time, all the continents were connected to each other... because
there is evidence.. even if the evidence is rather specialized..
it is vastly easier to prove something exists, than to prove that something
doesn't exists.... 

But it is very, very easy and simple to prove some things do not exist.

Peter Kropotkin: so, please take the heaven and god on faith...
I have something firmer, reality....

Atto: REAL_IT_Y is not something firm Kropotkin, it can easily be manipulated by God.

K: so goes the argument from Descartes.. that some god manipulates the
evidence EVEN in my head as to the existence of something... but how
does that god go about proving something doesn't exists?

By just showing and revealing 'it', to you, in a way that leaves no doubt.

reality isn't firm, that is kinda my point... but you need certainty in
existence... that your god provides you... and that is great, for you...
reality is just as much about randomness and chance as it is about
the stars and planets and trees and people...

So, it sounds here like you, also, need certainty "peter kropotkin".

evolution requires
randomness to even work...

And, do you have actual evidence or facts for this, like you do for dinosaurs existing?

which is why evolution is a far more
likely theory of human existence...

But both 'creation' and 'evolution' were and are needed for you human beings to come into and remain in Existence, Itself.

for how do you explain chance
and randomness in the universe?

you saying and asking 'this', as though it is evidence or proof for your claim here is like "attofishpi" saying and asking, 'for how do you explain the random chance or linguistic evolution, patterns, and connections in the Universe?' For "attofishpi's" belief and claim that there is 'an intelligence behind it all'.

you are both, laughingly, using the 'exact same way' to try and argue for the 'exact opposition view and belief'.

everything is determined in the universe

Even to the extent of, and in regards to, what you human beings freely choose to cause and create here.

except human choice, our free will... umm, that creates some
difficulties if thought about.... so, don't think about it... you might
find yourself in doubt...

Kropotkin

That might create some 'difficulties' to you "peter kropotkin". But, this is because 'it' goes against what you 'currently' believe is absolutely true.

Take away 'the belief', and 'the difficulty' goes too.

[Age]

Atto: I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

K: evidence enough for you, I am sure.. you have a need for certainty,
that I do not need.. the universe is random, chaotic and very, very
messy... I don't mind it being a messy and random universe...
it kinda fits who I am...

everything is determined in the universe
except human choice, our free will... umm, that creates some
difficulties if thought about.... so, don't think about it... you might
find yourself in doubt...

DO_U_BT <-- BT is my true initials in this strange REAL_IT_Y God had me labelled. LIFE OF BRIAN T.

Science confirms EVERYTHING is NOT determined in the universe per quantum indeterminacy.

I don't care that you don't believe my account of empirical evidence provided to ME of God since 1997. The fact that you overlook and mock the clear evidence I provide in Divine Etymology Argument proves an intellectual shortcoming on your part.

we spend our lives pushing rocks up the hill, to only end in death,
with the rock now rolling back to the ground and picked up by
a new generation... and for all existence, for all people, we spend
our human existence simply pushing rocks uphill, only to have
them roll back downhill at our death...and so on and so forth,
till the end of time...

You just keep pushing that rock Kropotkin. It seems the fact that God exists you will not discover this lifetime and all you believe of this life is that it ends in an eternal non-existence. I KNOW the contrary is true.

But it is "peter "kropotkin" who KNOWS the reality, and thus truth here. And, this is because "peter kropotkin" told 'us' here.

So, if "attofishpi" KNOWS what is true here, and, "peter kropotkin" also KNOWS what is true here, and they both believe that they both do not have to provide actual proof nor facts, but they are both expressing opposite and contrary things from each other, then who, really, KNOWS what is true here?

The actual answer by the way is very simple and very easy to find, come across, and KNOW.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Atto: I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

K: evidence enough for you, I am sure.. you have a need for certainty,
that I do not need.. the universe is random, chaotic and very, very
messy... I don't mind it being a messy and random universe...
it kinda fits who I am...

everything is determined in the universe
except human choice, our free will... umm, that creates some
difficulties if thought about.... so, don't think about it... you might
find yourself in doubt...

DO_U_BT <-- BT is my true initials in this strange REAL_IT_Y God had me labelled. LIFE OF BRIAN T.

Science confirms EVERYTHING is NOT determined in the universe per quantum indeterminacy.

I don't care that you don't believe my account of empirical evidence provided to ME of God since 1997. The fact that you overlook and mock the clear evidence I provide in Divine Etymology Argument proves an intellectual shortcoming on your part.

we spend our lives pushing rocks up the hill, to only end in death,
with the rock now rolling back to the ground and picked up by
a new generation... and for all existence, for all people, we spend
our human existence simply pushing rocks uphill, only to have
them roll back downhill at our death...and so on and so forth,
till the end of time...

You just keep pushing that rock Kropotkin. It seems the fact that God exists you will not discover this lifetime and all you believe of this life is that it ends in an eternal non-existence. I KNOW the contrary is true.

K: and that is the difference between us... so, what do I care if I have
''eternal non-existence" I have no interest, none whatsoever, of having
an eternal life.. it sound incredibly boring, on either side of the equation....
I just assume to have non-existence than eternal life...
but hay, that is just me... when one wants or demands eternal life,
that is just ego talking.. and ego is of no interest to me...
I am old.... and ego is for the young..

Kropotkin

[Age]

Atto: I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

K: evidence enough for you, I am sure.. you have a need for certainty,
that I do not need.. the universe is random, chaotic and very, very
messy... I don't mind it being a messy and random universe...
it kinda fits who I am...

everything is determined in the universe
except human choice, our free will... umm, that creates some
difficulties if thought about.... so, don't think about it... you might
find yourself in doubt...

DO_U_BT <-- BT is my true initials in this strange REAL_IT_Y God had me labelled. LIFE OF BRIAN T.

Science confirms EVERYTHING is NOT determined in the universe per quantum indeterminacy.

I don't care that you don't believe my account of empirical evidence provided to ME of God since 1997. The fact that you overlook and mock the clear evidence I provide in Divine Etymology Argument proves an intellectual shortcoming on your part.

we spend our lives pushing rocks up the hill, to only end in death,
with the rock now rolling back to the ground and picked up by
a new generation... and for all existence, for all people, we spend
our human existence simply pushing rocks uphill, only to have
them roll back downhill at our death...and so on and so forth,
till the end of time...

You just keep pushing that rock Kropotkin. It seems the fact that God exists you will not discover this lifetime and all you believe of this life is that it ends in an eternal non-existence. I KNOW the contrary is true.

K: and that is the difference between us... so, what do I care if I have
''eternal non-existence" I have no interest, none whatsoever, of having
an eternal life..

But, you wanting to live contradicts or counters this claim here.

it sound incredibly boring,

This one must have a very sad life, if they think or believe living is boring.

on either side of the equation....
I just assume to have non-existence than eternal life...
but hay, that is just me... when one wants or demands eternal life,
that is just ego talking.. and ego is of no interest to me...
I am old.... and ego is for the young..

Kropotkin

Saying, and claiming, that, 'I am old', and that, 'ego is for the young', could sound and come across somewhat 'very egotistical'.

Or, sound like someone who has just 'given up' and/or who does not have that much more to look forward to at all.