To me logically necessary only means that it exists in all worlds.
Faith and reason
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Re: Faith and reason
Christians who believe the Bible is the exact words of God without flaws in the original writing or translations, who take things literally and never as poetic.
And what time period is considered reasonable for holding such a belief? Are there any other criteria that might extend the period?No. To me believing is a way to find the truth. We first believe on something and then try to see if it makes sense or not.
Unless your memory of those experiences and your thinking are faulty.I am currently studying several proofs of the existence of God. Some of the proofs are not based on assumptions. Some of them are very hard to counter.
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The experiences that led to you deciding proofs are very hard to counter. The experiences that led you to believe that the proofs have no assumptions (I find that hard to believe actually: that they have no assumptions: no assumption that memory works to some degree, no assumption that reality is consistent and intelligible, no assumption that one is fairly sane, no assumption we are not brains in vats and being prodded occasionally so we think X makes sense, no assumptions about language and it's relation to reality and so on). But in any case you are assuming or were assuming when you wrote that that your memories of your experiences of your analysis were generally correct.What do you mean with those experiences?
I cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:08 pm But it seems to make sense to assume that memory is at least to some degree reliable, so many of us, including you it seems, assume things we cannot prove.
[/quote]We all make assumptions that we cannot prove. We all believe things we cannot prove.
And I think 'prove' is not the best word here. But that's a separate related issue.
There are so many things we can't prove. Even more than those we can't prove are reasonable to others.
Re: Faith and reason
Yes.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:02 pmChristians who believe the Bible is the exact words of God without flaws in the original writing or translations, who take things literally and never as poetic.
Until the belief is not shown to be wrong.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:02 pmAnd what time period is considered reasonable for holding such a belief? Are there any other criteria that might extend the period?No. To me believing is a way to find the truth. We first believe on something and then try to see if it makes sense or not.
Well, some proof starts with a definition or definitions and premises that are evident, are, or seem to be true. The problem is mainly with the premises. One need to understand and anylaze them to see if they are true or not.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:02 pmThe experiences that led to you deciding proofs are very hard to counter. The experiences that led you to believe that the proofs have no assumptions (I find that hard to believe actually: that they have no assumptions: no assumption that memory works to some degree, no assumption that reality is consistent and intelligible, no assumption that one is fairly sane, no assumption we are not brains in vats and being prodded occasionally so we think X makes sense, no assumptions about language and it's relation to reality and so on). But in any case you are assuming or were assuming when you wrote that that your memories of your experiences of your analysis were generally correct.What do you mean with those experiences?
You need to be specific when I assume something I cannot prove.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:02 pmWe all make assumptions that we cannot prove. We all believe things we cannot prove.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:29 pmI cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:08 pm But it seems to make sense to assume that memory is at least to some degree reliable, so many of us, including you it seems, assume things we cannot prove.
And I think 'prove' is not the best word here. But that's a separate related issue.
There are so many things we can't prove. Even more than those we can't prove are reasonable to others.
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Re: Faith and reason
You are that narrow minded?bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:50 pmI mean deduction when I talk about reason.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:41 amHow can you be so ignorant of the reality in this case?
Scientific facts as the most credible and objective necessary entails reason [inductive] and faith [small degrees].
Induction is not of high quality reason as compared to say deduction.
Note Reasonable-faith
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/
but faith is this case is too high to be reasonably reasonable.
It is so prevalent within theology and philosophy where theologians had relied upon reason to prove the existence of God.
But ultimately is these cases, the faith [implicit] is too high to be reasonably reasonable.
There is a continuum of reason that cannot be ignored.
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Re: Faith and reason
Which might not happen in a lifetime.
And whatever process one uses will also have assumptions: about selves, about knowledge, about reality, about the effectiveness of analysis, about memory, likely about perception also, effectiveness of introspection will always be implicit. I'm sure there are other areas of assumptions. So, once one is done analyzing the premises, one must then analyze the premies in the process one used. And then in that process that analyzes the process of analysis. If it is the same kind of process, well that is justifying via assumptions. If it is a different process, then new assumptions arise. And so on.Well, some proof starts with a definition or definitions and premises that are evident, are, or seem to be true. The problem is mainly with the premises. One need to understand and anylaze them to see if they are true or not.
I've done that a number of times in relation to memory, for example, and again in this post about a few areas where nearly everyone makes assumptions including you. You can't prove memory is effective without relying on memory which means assuming it is effective. And that includes the memory used in the steps of analysis. Previous posts raise other issues and this one some others.You need to be specific when I assume something I cannot prove.
Re: Faith and reason
Yes, but induction does not work in the case of God.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:44 amYou are that narrow minded?bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:50 pmI mean deduction when I talk about reason.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:41 am
How can you be so ignorant of the reality in this case?
Scientific facts as the most credible and objective necessary entails reason [inductive] and faith [small degrees].
Induction is not of high quality reason as compared to say deduction.
Note Reasonable-faith
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/
but faith is this case is too high to be reasonably reasonable.
It is so prevalent within theology and philosophy where theologians had relied upon reason to prove the existence of God.
But ultimately is these cases, the faith [implicit] is too high to be reasonably reasonable.
There is a continuum of reason that cannot be ignored.
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Re: Faith and reason
Again your thinking is too shallow and narrow,bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:57 amYes, but induction does not work in the case of God.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:44 amYou are that narrow minded?
There is a continuum of reason that cannot be ignored.
[not pejorative, but to prompt you need to read & think more]
Bayes' Theorem is a simple mathematical formula used for calculating conditional probabilities. It figures prominently in subjectivist or Bayesian approaches to epistemology, statistics, and inductive logic.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bayes-theorem/
Bayes' Theorem is a very common basis, theists argued for the existence of God.
What is Bayes's theorem, and how can it be used to assign probabilities to questions such as the existence of God? What scientific value does it have?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... heorem-an/
Re: Faith and reason
I don't have access to the article.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:06 amAgain your thinking is too shallow and narrow,bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:57 amYes, but induction does not work in the case of God.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:44 am
You are that narrow minded?
There is a continuum of reason that cannot be ignored.
[not pejorative, but to prompt you need to read & think more]
Bayes' Theorem is a simple mathematical formula used for calculating conditional probabilities. It figures prominently in subjectivist or Bayesian approaches to epistemology, statistics, and inductive logic.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bayes-theorem/
Bayes' Theorem is a very common basis, theists argued for the existence of God.
What is Bayes's theorem, and how can it be used to assign probabilities to questions such as the existence of God? What scientific value does it have?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... heorem-an/
Re: Faith and reason
Then that will be the duty of our children.
Again, you can assume a premise if you want to start a proof but in the end, you have to either prove it, or it has to be evident.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:55 amAnd whatever process one uses will also have assumptions: about selves, about knowledge, about reality, about the effectiveness of analysis, about memory, likely about perception also, effectiveness of introspection will always be implicit. I'm sure there are other areas of assumptions. So, once one is done analyzing the premises, one must then analyze the premies in the process one used. And then in that process that analyzes the process of analysis. If it is the same kind of process, well that is justifying via assumptions. If it is a different process, then new assumptions arise. And so on.Well, some proof starts with a definition or definitions and premises that are evident, are, or seem to be true. The problem is mainly with the premises. One need to understand and anylaze them to see if they are true or not.
I didn't assume anything in OP. It would be nice of you if you could find and mention it to me so we can work around it.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:55 amI've done that a number of times in relation to memory, for example, and again in this post about a few areas where nearly everyone makes assumptions including you.You need to be specific when I assume something I cannot prove.
I cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:55 am You can't prove memory is effective without relying on memory which means assuming it is effective. And that includes the memory used in the steps of analysis. Previous posts raise other issues and this one some others.
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Re: Faith and reason
What I meant was that at any given moment, we don't know if our assumptions are ones to move forward with or at some point in the future, we will realize we need to replace/eliminate them. So, we do the best we can with our assumptions and beliefs. Carrying them forward until they seem necessary to replace or they continue to seem to work, be right. this holds for secular and religious people, everyong. All of us making assumptions that seem to work (and some likely do work) and moving forward until they no longer seem to to us. We have many ways of avoiding noticing if they are working or not, of course. And that's my quasi pragmatist view of what's going on.
But exhorting everyone to prove their beliefs is true as if it would be irrational to have a belief or assumption without being able to prove it is not reasonable. None of us can prove all our assumptions. There is an ad hoc aspect to getting by.
One person's sense of what is evident is another person's sense of what is false. And we will always use assumptions in our analysis of our assumptions.Again, you can assume a premise if you want to start a proof but in the end, you have to either prove it, or it has to be evident.
You seem to think assumptions are only in the direct meaning of the words. There are implicit assumptions in the semantics of the words, in your sense that you have done correct deductive work, in your sense that language relates to reality and how it does that, in your assumption/sense that reality is intelligible, in your sense that the past directly relates to the present (iow you can make general rules about what must be through time), in your sense that you interpreted the Bible correctly and that one can do this, in your own memory of the steps you took when working this out. I am sure there are more.I didn't assume anything in OP. It would be nice of you if you could find and mention it to me so we can work around it.
We all assume things about ourselves, the universe, memory, the relationship between language and reality, our processes of reasoning, and so on. And if we use those same assumptions in the process of analyzying our assumptions, it begs the question of whether the assumptions are correct since the analyzing tools and assumptions are based on the very assumptions the process is trying to analyze.
I don't mean, at all, this disproves your process. My point is that we all assume things we cannot prove. That is what it is to be alive and in situ and not somehow omniscient.
Re: Faith and reason
Yes, that is how we proceed.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 amWhat I meant was that at any given moment, we don't know if our assumptions are ones to move forward with or at some point in the future, we will realize we need to replace/eliminate them. So, we do the best we can with our assumptions and beliefs. Carrying them forward until they seem necessary to replace or they continue to seem to work, be right. this holds for secular and religious people, everyong. All of us making assumptions that seem to work (and some likely do work) and moving forward until they no longer seem to to us. We have many ways of avoiding noticing if they are working or not, of course. And that's my quasi pragmatist view of what's going on.
If reality is intelligible and coherent then everything can be proven otherwise we are going to have problems with the assumptions we make.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 am But exhorting everyone to prove their beliefs is true as if it would be irrational to have a belief or assumption without being able to prove it is not reasonable. None of us can prove all our assumptions. There is an ad hoc aspect to getting by.
Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that change exists?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 amOne person's sense of what is evident is another person's sense of what is false. And we will always use assumptions in our analysis of our assumptions.Again, you can assume a premise if you want to start a proof but in the end, you have to either prove it, or it has to be evident.
What do you mean?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 amYou seem to think assumptions are only in the direct meaning of the words. There are implicit assumptions in the semantics of the words,I didn't assume anything in OP. It would be nice of you if you could find and mention it to me so we can work around it.
Unless otherwise is shown I have done correct deductive work.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 am in your sense that you have done correct deductive work,
Language seems functional when it comes to explaining things. If reality is intelligible and coherent then the language can explain it as well.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 am in your sense that language relates to reality and how it does that,
It seems so. We cannot know for sure until we find the truth or formulation that describes reality well.
What do you mean?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 am in your sense that the past directly relates to the present (iow you can make general rules about what must be through time),
Yes, I interpret the Bible literally.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 am in your sense that you interpreted the Bible correctly and that one can do this,
It seems that my memory works well, otherwise we could not communicate.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:08 am in your own memory of the steps you took when working this out.
Re: Faith and reason
So, to this one, you human beings have a limited imagination.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:33 pmNo, it is obviously true, correct.
I wonder what this one absolute belief here is based upon, exactly?
It this belief solely based upon the size of the human brain, alone?
I do not need an argument for this here.
As what the Truth is, exactly, is speaking for Itself here.
Re: Faith and reason
To you how many 'worlds' are there?