Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
Are you saying this about beliefs in general or specfically about free will/determinism?
Not in general, because "I believe I have free will" and "I believe I had tea for breakfast" aren't the same kind of "believe".
I'm talking about metaphysical self-descriptions/definitions. Identity construction simply on the basis of your understanding of the meaning of the words. A priori any testable/falsifiable criteria.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
It seems to me you say it, or some people say it, due to some kind of process of reasoning/reviewing memory and experience. One can't do a in-the-moment check of oneself and say 'Oh, yeah, I feel that determinism chugging away causing everything.' But in reviewing memory and performing some reasoning one might find oneself convinced one or the other is true and then say it and not the other.
That's just a sleight of hand. You can make any observation fit either definition. It's just (re?)interpretation.
It's all hermeneutics at play.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
Again, in general or with this issue and similar ones?
in general. Within the context of metaphysics.
You can then argue that everything is hermeneutics when it comes to self-interpretation; so everything is metaphysics.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
My point was more about beliefs in general and other people. Or myself over time. That one can compare and see different abilities to evaluate.
Yeah. All of that stuff is hermeneutics. Self-interpretation. Self-the-infividual; and self-the-group.
It's logically undecidable without an objective/external criterion; but the criteria themselves are self-determined.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
Again, on this issue or regarding any belief one has?
I guess you could say I am talking about beliefs pertaining to one's own state of being.
If it has no logical implications (positive or negative) it's just a tautology.
I believe in global warming. Do you? Is that a testable/falsifiable claim about the part of reality you call "your state of mind" ?
What observation would falsify your self-claim?
Or... I believe I can ride a bycicle. Do you? if you fall off the bike on your first 5 attempts to ride it - was your belief true?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
You don't encounter people who claim they believe things and you doubt them. But others less so?
So lets work on the distinction between doubting the state of the world; and doubting one's own state of being in the world.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
Have you never experienced realizing that you would have been wrong (in the main) about one of your beliefs when you were younger? Beliefs about yourself that is. I've had this experience where I thought I was optimistic that X would happen or continue but then noticed my incredible shock and surprise that it went that way. I could feel at that time that really most of me expected to die, be fired, be left whatever. But I had been suppressing this.
I have experienced it - plenty. Only to realize that I was never "wrong". I was just persuaded to switch belief-systems and languages.
But all that changed was the way I speak and think about the world.
Not the way I acted in the world.
My goals and values remained unchanged.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
It's a bit like the official position of a company or government agency. The spokeperson may well believe what they are saying, but the bulk of the company or agency knows it's BS.
That's just equivocation on "believe".
I believe in Democracy means "I want to bring about more democracy to the world"
I believe in global warming doesn't mean "I want to bring about more global warming to the world".
One is about future reification.
One is state of current affairs.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
Is this how you think in general, about most issues? most beliefs? Or is it a certain subset?
So lets work on the distinction between doubting the state of the world; and doubting one's own state of being in the world.
Do I believe in belief? Yes? No?
Either is a valid choice. If I go with "No" It just means I reject the concept of "belief", but then I'd have to replace it with something functionally equivalent for inter-personal communication.
Whatever that new thing is - it'll still be coherent
And so atheists reject God, and they've replaced it with one-or-many functionally equivalent concepts. Morality, Big Bang.
etc. etc. etc.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:52 am
Wouldn't it be accepting his choice of narrative if I point out to someone that he didn't believe in free will, if that's what he said.
See, now you are drawing a distinction between narrative and belief.
Spinoza clearly chose his narrative. The narrative that he doesn't believe in free will. He really did choose that narrative. Freely.
Which amounts to a performative contradiction. So now - do you beat him over the head with this (because philosophy); or do you accept his framing/paradigm (because science/learning)?
War or peace? Your choice.
All systemic failures are communication failures. Humans have far more in common than they know, but they can't get over the language barrier to figure it out.