Free will is wholly deterministic

[henry quirk]

If your position is that all that exists is either a material thing or process of interaction between material things ('events')

That's not my position. Most of all that exists is either a material thing or process of interaction between material things ('events').

I, like you, am an agent. I am not solely a material thing; I am not a process of interaction.

A fundamental argument against determinism would have to involve a complete abandonment of materialism and its truths for some variation of Cartesian substance dualism.

No, you simply have to recognize the obvious exceptions to materialism/necessitarianism (man and God); hylomorphism, not substance duality.

[henry quirk]

why in Heaven's name would I want to go against what I want, desire, value and have as goals?

Becuz you choose to deny guaranteed pleasure/satisfaction today in anticipation of a possible better benefit tomorrow; becuz your chosen principles conflict with base desire; becuz you choose to demonstrate (to your child, mebbe) the value of honoring obligations that inconvenience you. I imagine there are as many answers to your question as there are free wills.

[henry quirk]

"Come out of"? No, that's not the right wording.

No, it's not. I am the cause of my values, my goals, my choices. I am an apprehender and user of history and circumstance, not a conduit for them. My choices come out of, come from, me, not my neurons or genes or childhood or sciatica or taco-shaped mattress or Washington DC or the Devil or God or neuroses or the exchange of heat or the collision of particles or...

I, like everyone and anyone reading this, am a point of creative & causal power. I'm a free will.

[Wizard22]

Question for the Soft (Iwanna, Flannel Jesus) or "Hard" Determinists...

Question for OP...

If a person has two choices before him, Option A or B, and doesn't know which route to take... how is he Determined to choose one option instead of the other? What if he's coerced? What if he's not, how could he "not be coerced"? How could his choice be "purely his own"? What if he chooses to flip a coin? Does he 'determine' the choice through the coin? Is the coin, the object, now the 'determination'? Does the coin now have Free-Will? How does the 'locus of causality' move between the Subject (the guy) or the Object (the coin)? How does Causality move between objects, between sources, between choices?

I'll be waiting......

[Skepdick]

Question for the Soft (Iwanna, Flannel Jesus) or "Hard" Determinists...

Question for OP...

If a person has two choices before him, Option A or B, and doesn't know which route to take... how is he Determined to choose one option instead of the other? What if he's coerced? What if he's not, how could he "not be coerced"? How could his choice be "purely his own"? What if he chooses to flip a coin? Does he 'determine' the choice through the coin? Is the coin, the object, now the 'determination'? Does the coin now have Free-Will? How does the 'locus of causality' move between the Subject (the guy) or the Object (the coin)? How does Causality move between objects, between sources, between choices?

I'll be waiting......

What was the locus of causality for this post?

Was it the Big Bang?
Was it your mommy and adddy doing the dirty a while back?
Was it the meteorite which led to dinosaur extinction which allowed another species to (eventually) become dominant on this planet; species that will end up doing philosophy; and waiting for responses on philosophy forums?
Was it your childhood trauma which made you so obnoxious that you keep seeking refuge in philosophy websites which let you behave without seeking any accountability for your behaviour?

[Wizard22]

What was the locus of causality for this post?

Was it the Big Bang?
Was it your mommy and adddy doing the dirty a while back?
Was it the meteorite which led to dinosaur extinction which allowed another species to (eventually) become dominant on this planet; species that will end up doing philosophy; and waiting for responses on philosophy forums?
Was it your childhood trauma which made you so obnoxious that you keep seeking refuge in philosophy websites which let you behave without seeking any accountability for your behaviour?

I'll answer you...after the Determinists answer me first.

[Skepdick]

What was the locus of causality for this post?

Was it the Big Bang?
Was it your mommy and adddy doing the dirty a while back?
Was it the meteorite which led to dinosaur extinction which allowed another species to (eventually) become dominant on this planet; species that will end up doing philosophy; and waiting for responses on philosophy forums?
Was it your childhood trauma which made you so obnoxious that you keep seeking refuge in philosophy websites which let you behave without seeking any accountability for your behaviour?

I'll answer you...after the Determinists answer me first.

You aren't free to change the order in which this happens?

[Iwannaplato]

Question for the Soft (Iwanna, Flannel Jesus) or "Hard" Determinists...

Question for OP...

If a person has two choices before him, Option A or B, and doesn't know which route to take... how is he Determined to choose one option instead of the other? What if he's coerced? What if he's not, how could he "not be coerced"? How could his choice be "purely his own"? What if he chooses to flip a coin? Does he 'determine' the choice through the coin? Is the coin, the object, now the 'determination'? Does the coin now have Free-Will? How does the 'locus of causality' move between the Subject (the guy) or the Object (the coin)? How does Causality move between objects, between sources, between choices?

I'll be waiting......

I'm not a determinist or a free will believer, but I can give a determinist answer.
Coerced, as a word, implies external forces. Determinists would consider choices to be made based on all causes, internal and external.
So, the choice would be based on causes coming from his desires, wants, goals, sense of reality, sense of the options, his or her evauluation of the options. All those things are caused by his past and includes both nature and nurture. What this person has experienced and tendencies in his or her genetic makeup.

Only one choice was ever going to be made, though the person may even be surprised by what they choose. We are not aware of all the internal causes of our actions.

Yes, if this person chooses to flip a coin the past has determined the state the body is in that moment, any breeze in the air, the balance of weight in the coin and so on. His mood and attitude would affect how the coin is tossed - perhaps this person is pissed off so it's an aggressive flip. No, the coin does not have free will. And that was an odd question to ask a determinist. He chooses to flip a coin and use the result to make his choice. His actions lead to the coin flip's qualities in addition to the qualities of the coin and any other factor that affects the coin.

Now answer Skepdick

[Wizard22]

What was the locus of causality for this post?

Was it the Big Bang?
Was it your mommy and adddy doing the dirty a while back?
Was it the meteorite which led to dinosaur extinction which allowed another species to (eventually) become dominant on this planet; species that will end up doing philosophy; and waiting for responses on philosophy forums?
Was it your childhood trauma which made you so obnoxious that you keep seeking refuge in philosophy websites which let you behave without seeking any accountability for your behaviour?

You aren't free to change the order in which this happens?

There are infinite "Causes" which precede me and everybody else. However, NONE of these "antecedent conditions" are significant compared to the 'locus' of what is viscerally and immediately present. This self-identity I call "I", myself, is the Agency of my choice and determination, and nobody/nothing else. The focal point is Me.

The difference between Determinists and Free-Willists, is that the Determinist denies and rejects the notion of Self-responsibility. It's never "my fault" in the Determinist mindset...for anything bad/wrong/evil. But the Determinists will then act contradictory, hypocritical, when it comes to taking responsibility for what is Good, where they can gain Credit for doing so. So Determinists "take responsibility" for their lives, selectively, gaining enough "Free-Will" when it suits their purposes (when it is pleasurable). Because of this pathological, emotional motivation, a selective-bias forms. Determinists can enjoy the fruit of a hypothetical "Free-Will" when convenient, and reject the entire notion of Free-Will, when it doesn't. This bleeds over onto their Deterministic rationality. "It was Determined to be so", is a type of code, to represent again that it's as-if "God Wills It" when it benefits the Determinist...but not when it doesn't benefit them.

Free-Willists have no such luxury. We can't selectively accept responsibility for Good and Bad/Evil, according to our subjective, personal desires. Because Free-Will implies error, mistake, flaws, losses. The problem of Choice, is to choose Wrongly. But you can see from the Determinist mindset (Iwanna just explained), there is no "Choice" because all Choices are illusive, or delusional. All Choices are (Pre)-Determined. According to the Determinists, there is no "Choice" a person or humanity could ever make, because all Choices are made, supposedly "in advance" of what Actually-takes-place.


Do you, or others, see how this selective-reasoning...Irrationality works? Do you understand?

Determinism implies a type of time-travelling. Everything is always 'determined', never Present, never "in the moment", never "right now", never a matter of Action which results in definitive Good or Bad/Evil. Everything is always pre-determined. "It must have been that way", even if you hypothetically had a choice, and a choice that wasn't or isn't Delusional, an Illusion.


I reject them all. I am firmly in favor of what Determinists claim is "Libertine Free-Will". What I know of Freedom, is Absolute. I can walk upside-down through the clouds. I am as big as planet Jupiter. I am at the Beginning of Time itself. I created the Cosmos. I made a shape that is both circle and square simultaneously. I undo the fabric of space and time. I am beyond Physics. I am above God.

Absolutely.
Free.
Will.

[Skepdick]

There are infinite "Causes" which precede me and everybody else. However, NONE of these "antecedent conditions" are significant compared to the 'locus' of what is viscerally and immediately present. This self-identity I call "I", myself, is the Agency of my choice and determination, and nobody/nothing else. The focal point is Me.

That's just called being self-centered, mate.

You are a narcissist.

[Wizard22]

That's just called being self-centered, mate.

You are a narcissist.

On the contrary, I think Determinists are worse.

[Skepdick]

That's just called being self-centered, mate.

You are a narcissist.

On the contrary, I think Determinists are worse.

Why? I can't change the past - only the future. So why feel any guilt of fault for what I've done? In what way does responsibility help me undo my choices?

Assigning blame; or fault is simply not a useful way of going about this.

For example, you can't blame a self-centered nacrissist for being self-centered. They just don't know how to focus on anything other than themselves.

Me - I have no choice but to focus on somethign else. I have no ego to focus on. So all I can focus on is the consequences of my actions.

[Wizard22]

Why? I can't change the past - only the future. So why feel any guilt of fault for what I've done? In what way does responsibility help me undo my choices?

Assigning blame; or fault is simply not a useful way of going about this.

For example, you can't blame a self-centered nacrissist for being self-centered. They just don't know how to focus on anything other than themselves.

Me - I have no choice but to focus on somethign else. I have no ego to focus on. So all I can focus on is the consequences of my actions.

The only thing that a human being hypothetically could have responsibility for in life, is Choice.

If you can't choose, therefore have no Free-Will, then you have no responsibilities. This is why Determinism is based on Amorality. It's a pathological salve, a coping mechanism, designed to purge a human being's Ego from feelings like...shame, guilt, worry, fear, loss, negative consequences of any and every kind.

Determinism is the River Styx, absolving Humanity of their Sins.

[Skepdick]

The only thing that a human being hypothetically could have responsibility for in life, is Choice.

Nonsense. The only thing I have responsibility is for making the world better. Or at least not making it any worse.

Sometimes that entails abdicating my choice. In fact - that's most of the time, because more often than not making a rushed, impulsive choice would make matters worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis

[Wizard22]

Nonsense. The only thing I have responsibility is for making the world better. Or at least not making it any worse.

Sometimes that entails abdicating my choice. In fact - that's most of the time, because more often than not making a rushed, impulsive choice would make matters worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis

No...it's still your choice.

You can't pick & choose your moral responsibility, as a Free-Willist. You have to take the good with the bad, and especially the bad with the good.