We're doing our best with the data available. What we human beings know, which you clearly do not, is that even if we discover something to believe and it is never contradicted, we will not know it is the absolute truth, because the imagination is such that it will always be possible to generate alternative hypotheses. Something is the absolute truth, but it is empirically indistinguishable from any number of theories that explain the universe equally well. If you claim to know that only one theory could fit all the evidence, you lack imagination.
How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
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Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
The entire point being that there's currently no coherent notion of a "moment".Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:46 amThat includes entangled arrangements and simutaneityWill Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:48 pmI'm happy to concede that at any moment, the universe is in a particular arrangement...
Every nugget of human intuition wants to think of a moment as "distinct point in time" ala pausing a video to obtain a still-frame, but points are the wrong abstractions for the job; which makes the entire notion of "simultinaity" a bit fuzzy.
Naturally, the human intuition gravitates to such models because all total computable functions have a fixed point..
Lucky for us though...points need not be primitives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointless_topology
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Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
That seems perfectly coherent. It looks to me like ontology against epistemology. I don't see why the fact that we can't tell what every part of the universe is doing at a given 'moment', they are not all doing something.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
My understanding is that special relativity precludes the claim that "at any moment, the universe is in a particular arrangement ..." That is precisely the point. There is no universal moment in relativity.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:46 am As I said to seeds:That includes entangled arrangements and simutaneity. The type of absolute time I mean is the sort that exists independently of anything happening, the type that would keep ticking even if nothing existed. Is there a type of absolute time you think simultaneity supports?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:48 pmI'm happy to concede that at any moment, the universe is in a particular arrangement...
If nothing existed, that would include ticking clocks. They tell us that before the big bang, neither time or space existed.
Makes sense. I don't know how the quantum theorists account for that.
Last edited by wtf on Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Again, it's ontology versus epistemology. Of course the universe is in the condition it is in, we just can't gather the information to tell what that is, except from our own relative point of view.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Here we have another example of EXCUSES, which these human beings, back in the days when this was being written, would quite frequently USE.
"We're doing our best', or, "We can only do our best", were very common EXCUSES USED, back in those 'olden days'.
What these people had not yet worked out and did not yet realize was that if they were, supposedly, doing their 'best', then they could not do any 'better'. Which, really, was just an EXCUSE for not even trying to do any better, and thus staying STUCK where they were.
Now, we all have the same 'data' here. So, why do you 'imagine' that 'we' have come to different conclusions, from 'you'?
I am pretty sure the ones who believed and insisted that the sun revolves around the earth also believed that they were 'doing their best with the data available' as well.
Also, if you remember when we had the same 'data' regarding the earth relative to the sun, then what do you imagine led to the difference in conclusions there?
Here we have an example of why these humans beings were so slow. 'Beliefs' and ' hypotheses' slowed them down tremendously. These things were preventing them from learning, and from understanding, what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY,Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:09 pmWhat we human beings know, which you clearly do not, is that even if we discover something to believe and it is never contradicted, we will not know it is the absolute truth, because the imagination is such that it will always be possible to generate alternative hypotheses.
AND, as I have been continually EXPLAINING, making these assumptions or theories only slow and prevent 'you', human beings, from seeing and recognising the ACTUAL Truth. Which, by the way, is very distinguishable from those Wrong and Incorrect theories that obviously do NOT explain the Universe that well AT ALL.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:09 pm Something is the absolute truth, but it is empirically indistinguishable from any number of theories that explain the universe equally well.
But I would NEVER claim such an ABSURD thing as this. So, what you say here is moot.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:09 pm If you claim to know that only one theory could fit all the evidence, you lack imagination.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Well considering that that definition of 'absolute time' is itself, an absolute impossibility to exist, there is NO wonder why you think what 'you' do here.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:46 amI'm no physics expert, don't even pretend to play one on the internet either, but entanglement has no bearing on the sort of absolute time I'm talking about.
As I said to seeds:That includes entangled arrangements and simutaneity. The type of absolute time I mean is the sort that exists independently of anything happening, the type that would keep ticking even if nothing existed.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:48 pmI'm happy to concede that at any moment, the universe is in a particular arrangement...
What, EXACTLY, is 'simultaneity' to you?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:46 am Is there a type of absolute time you think simultaneity supports?
And, will you provide examples of these alleged 'entangled arrangements'?
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Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Read that first paragraph again Age; it is precisely the absurd thing you say you would never claim.Age wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:14 amAND, as I have been continually EXPLAINING, making these assumptions or theories only slow and prevent 'you', human beings, from seeing and recognising the ACTUAL Truth. Which, by the way, is very distinguishable from those Wrong and Incorrect theories that obviously do NOT explain the Universe that well AT ALL.But I would NEVER claim such an ABSURD thing as this. So, what you say here is moot.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:09 pm If you claim to know that only one theory could fit all the evidence, you lack imagination.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
LOLWill Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:26 amRead that first paragraph again Age; it is precisely the absurd thing you say you would never claim.Age wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:14 amAND, as I have been continually EXPLAINING, making these assumptions or theories only slow and prevent 'you', human beings, from seeing and recognising the ACTUAL Truth. Which, by the way, is very distinguishable from those Wrong and Incorrect theories that obviously do NOT explain the Universe that well AT ALL.But I would NEVER claim such an ABSURD thing as this. So, what you say here is moot.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:09 pm If you claim to know that only one theory could fit all the evidence, you lack imagination.
You are, once again, SO FAR from the ACTUAL Truth of things here.
And, ONCE AGAIN, if you just sought out CLARIFICATION, FIRST, BEFORE you made this ABAURD CLAIM here now, then you would NOT be SO Wrong as you are.
Furthermore, I am NOT even sure what you are seeing, which made you make such a RIDICULOUS and ABSURD CLAIM as you just did here.
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Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Age, I won't be responding to anything further of yours until you can demonstrate that you understand your own posts, because if you can't handle that, there is very little prospect of you understanding what anyone else writes.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
That's not ontology vs epistemology. That's wishful thinking vs epistemology.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:38 pmAgain, it's ontology versus epistemology. Of course the universe is in the condition it is in, we just can't gather the information to tell what that is, except from our own relative point of view.
When you speak of "THE condition" (of the universe) it sounds like you've already assumed a deterministic ontology, but the implication of Bell's theorem is that no deterministic theory can match the predictions of QM; so all the information we've already gathered tells us what it isn't.
Of course, you are free to disregard the evidence and assume whatever ontology pleases you.
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Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
Well, wtf was talking about special relativity, not QM as you refer to here:Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 2:22 pmThat's not ontology vs epistemology. That's wishful thinking vs epistemology.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:38 pmAgain, it's ontology versus epistemology. Of course the universe is in the condition it is in, we just can't gather the information to tell what that is, except from our own relative point of view.
If you take a quantum system, it is in the quantum state it is in irrespective of the theory anyone uses to describe that state. Same for any other system.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 2:22 pmWhen you speak of "THE condition" (of the universe) it sounds like you've already assumed a deterministic ontology, but the implication of Bell's theorem is that no deterministic theory can match the predictions of QM; so all the information we've already gathered tells us what it isn't.
A theorem is different to evidence, but I take your point.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
LOLWill Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 1:28 pmAge, I won't be responding to anything further of yours until you can demonstrate that you understand your own posts, because if you can't handle that, there is very little prospect of you understanding what anyone else writes.
LOL
LOL
It is OBVIOUSLY 'you', "will bouwman", is the one here who is NOT understanding what is being written and said. And, it is 'you' also who is NOT even bothering to even try to understand what is being written and said here. 'you' just BELIEVE what 'you' do, and, to 'you', that is all that is needed here.
Also, 'you' 'trying to' to DISTRACT and DECEIVE here is NOT being UNNOTICED. So, what this MEANS would be VERY OBVIOUS.
It is 'you' here who can NOT handle some thing, and that is that it was 'you' who made another mistake because 'you' did NOT gain clarity first.
Re: How does Einstein’s light clock explain time dilation?
You do not want to respond to me because you do not like it when I point out and show when you are Wrong and Incorrect, like above.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 1:28 pmAge, I won't be responding to anything further of yours until you can demonstrate that you understand your own posts, because if you can't handle that, there is very little prospect of you understanding what anyone else writes.
It is you who is not understanding here, as I just showed and PROVED True.