Emergence, strong, weak

[bahman]

Strong emergence refers to a phenomenon at which a system has at least a property that the parts do not have. Weak emergence refers to a phenomenon that a system has a set of properties at which these properties are properties of parts but they change depending on the physical condition of the system. The weak emergence is feasible. The strong emergence is magic.

[seeds]

The strong emergence is magic.

Yet, "voilà," "abracadabra." "presto-chango," the phenomenon of "consciousness"...

(which is oft considered to be an example of "strong emergence")

...somehow manages to effloresce (emerge) from a system that - in and of itself - does not provide an obvious explanation as to how something so radically different from the system's constituent parts could emerge from those parts - regardless of how those parts function together as a system.

As per the Wiki definition of strong emergence (bolding mine):

The whole is other than the sum of its parts.

In other words, the sum of the system's parts cannot account for the state of the "whole."

My point is that according to your assessment, consciousness must be a product of "magic."
_______

[Impenitent]

Super Chicken has the strongest emergence

-Imp

[bahman]

The strong emergence is magic.

Yet, "voilà," "abracadabra." "presto-chango," the phenomenon of "consciousness"...

(which is oft considered to be an example of "strong emergence")

...somehow manages to effloresce (emerge) from a system that - in and of itself - does not provide an obvious explanation as to how something so radically different from the system's constituent parts could emerge from those parts - regardless of how those parts function together as a system.

As per the Wiki definition of strong emergence (bolding mine):

The whole is other than the sum of its parts.

In other words, the sum of the system's parts cannot account for the state of the "whole."

My point is that according to your assessment, consciousness must be a product of "magic."
_______

But magic is not feasible since it is not explicable.

[seeds]

But magic is not feasible since it is not explicable.

Bahman, try to be mindful of the implications of your own assertions, because you are the one who insisted in your OP that strong emergence is "MAGIC."

Well...consciousness is an example of strong emergence.

Therefore, either provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why consciousness emerges from an arrangement of unconscious matter,...

...or, if not,...

...then don't be surprised if someone points out that your very own words imply that consciousness (again, an example of "strong emergence") is the result of magic.
_______

[bahman]

But magic is not feasible since it is not explicable.

Bahman, try to be mindful of the implications of your own assertions, because you are the one who insisted in your OP that strong emergence is "MAGIC."

Well...consciousness is an example of strong emergence.

Therefore, either provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why consciousness emerges from an arrangement of unconscious matter,...

...or, if not,...

...then don't be surprised if someone points out that your very own words imply that consciousness (again, an example of "strong emergence") is the result of magic.
_______

Consciousness, being aware, is an ability of the mind.

[seeds]

Consciousness, being aware, is an ability of the mind.

Come on now bahman, can't you do any better than a short little twitteresque response that (apparently, unbeknownst to you) simply replaces one example of strong emergence (i.e. "consciousness") with another example of strong emergence ("mind")?

Okay then, if you insist that strong emergence can only be a product of "magic," then provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why a "mind"...

(and especially the self-aware "agent" that comes with it)

...can somehow emerge from an arrangement of mindless/agentless matter?

(And please, bahman, how about putting a little more thought and effort into your replies.)
_______

[bahman]

Consciousness, being aware, is an ability of the mind.

Come on now bahman, can't you do any better than a short little twitteresque response that (apparently, unbeknownst to you) simply replaces one example of strong emergence (i.e. "consciousness") with another example of strong emergence ("mind")?

Okay then, if you insist that strong emergence can only be a product of "magic," then provide us with a clear explanation as to how and why a "mind"...

(and especially the self-aware "agent" that comes with it)

...can somehow emerge from an arrangement of mindless/agentless matter?

(And please, bahman, how about putting a little more thought and effort into your replies.)
_______

Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.

[seeds]

Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.

Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?

If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______

[bahman]

Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.

Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?

Yes.

If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______

My mind does not come into existence. My mind has existed since the beginning of time. My mind just had a chance to merge with my body and make me what I am right now.

[seeds]

Mind is a fundamental entity of reality. It does not emerge from the matter process.

Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?

Yes.

If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______

My mind does not come into existence. My mind has existed since the beginning of time. My mind just had a chance to merge with my body and make me what I am right now.

When did time begin?

And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?
_______

[bahman]

Are you suggesting that your body and brain had nothing to do with the manifestation of your mind?

Yes.

If so, then please explain how the unique individualization of personal, self-aware consciousness that calls itself "bahman," came into existence?
_______

My mind does not come into existence. My mind has existed since the beginning of time. My mind just had a chance to merge with my body and make me what I am right now.

When did time begin?

When everything else excluding minds began to exist.

And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?
_______

I don't know. Perhaps I was a part of a fruit that my father ate.

[seeds]

And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?

I don't know. Perhaps I was a part of a fruit that my father ate.

I'm afraid that you and I have a completely different interpretation of what the term "your mind" means.
_______

[bahman]

And what exactly was your mind doing in the interim between the beginning of time and the moment it "merged" with your body?

I don't know. Perhaps I was a part of a fruit that my father ate.

I'm afraid that you and I have a completely different interpretation of what the term "your mind" means.
_______

What is mind to you?