Experiencing of experience
Experiencing of experience
I am sure that you agree with the fact that we are aware that we experience or we experience experience. One can argue that the only thing which is real is experience. The problem is then experiencing of experience which seems absurd.
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Re: Experiencing of experience
Isn't this just due to the way that we can reflect on things? An experience triggers thoughts about the experience which in turn produces further experiences?
Re: Experiencing of experience
Yes, it is like that. What puzzles me is that how we could experience experience.thought addict wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:13 pm Isn't this just due to the way that we can reflect on things? An experience triggers thoughts about the experience which in turn produces further experiences?
Re: Experiencing of experience
We can experience a perception when we are aware of the act of perceiving.
Our focus is on the act of perceiving and not on the subject of perceiving.
We can watch a butterfly and then experience that our eyesight goes wrong a little and we focus on our perception as such. Like a photographer who focuses on the camera and its lenses and not on what he wants to make a picture of.
It´s a question of focus.
If our organs of perception do not work properly we focus on them and not on what we wish to perceive using them.
Our focus is on the act of perceiving and not on the subject of perceiving.
We can watch a butterfly and then experience that our eyesight goes wrong a little and we focus on our perception as such. Like a photographer who focuses on the camera and its lenses and not on what he wants to make a picture of.
It´s a question of focus.
If our organs of perception do not work properly we focus on them and not on what we wish to perceive using them.
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Re: Experiencing of experience
When you say "experience experience", are you talking about experiencing any kind of experience like experiencing the color red for example? Or are you talking about experiencing what it feels like to be able to have experiences?
Re: Experiencing of experience
Exactly. But how that is possible under materialism?duszek wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:09 pm We can experience a perception when we are aware of the act of perceiving.
Our focus is on the act of perceiving and not on the subject of perceiving.
We can watch a butterfly and then experience that our eyesight goes wrong a little and we focus on our perception as such. Like a photographer who focuses on the camera and its lenses and not on what he wants to make a picture of.
It´s a question of focus.
If our organs of perception do not work properly we focus on them and not on what we wish to perceive using them.
Re: Experiencing of experience
Both.thought addict wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:14 pmWhen you say "experience experience", are you talking about experiencing any kind of experience like experiencing the color red for example? Or are you talking about experiencing what it feels like to be able to have experiences?
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Re: Experiencing of experience
Then I think you're looking for an answer to the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
I believe materialism is false because I cannot see how first person experience is possible under materialism.
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Re: Experiencing of experience
Jimi has left the building
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Re: Experiencing of experience
It is possible since all that is required are a mind which is the function of a brain and a physical body to have experiencesthought addict wrote:
I believe materialism is false because I cannot see how first person experience is possible under materialism
But all of human experience is first person anyway because it occurs from a frame of reference unique to every individual
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Re: Experiencing of experience
No, first person consciousness is apparently more than the function of a brain because all brain functions can be explained just fine from a third person perspective. Brain functions are things like behavior and information processing. They work just fine without there being any conscious mind at all.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am It is possible since all that is required are a mind which is the function of a brain and a physical body to have experiences
But materialism does not recognize that first person frame of reference. Personal identity also, which of those frames of reference is yours rather than mine is ignored also.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am But all of human experience is first person anyway because it occurs from a frame of reference unique to every individual
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Re: Experiencing of experience
It gets interesting when we get to the question of whether 1st person reports of consciousness can be explained just fine (by a 2nd person using scientific methods) without implying actual consciousness. Then you're moving toward a black hole of solipsism. Other people have potentially well-explained behaviors but give no evidence of consciousness per se, and hence there is nothing to explain or believe in regarding other minds.thought addict wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:36 pmNo, first person consciousness is apparently more than the function of a brain because all brain functions can be explained just fine from a third person perspective. Brain functions are things like behavior and information processing. They work just fine without there being any conscious mind at all.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am It is possible since all that is required are a mind which is the function of a brain and a physical body to have experiences
But materialism does not recognize that first person frame of reference. Personal identity also, which of those frames of reference is yours rather than mine is ignored also.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am But all of human experience is first person anyway because it occurs from a frame of reference unique to every individual
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Re: Experiencing of experience
Yes it's very interesting. The best we can do is notice that some other people seem to say the same sort of things when thinking about their claimed consciousness as we do ourselves and therefore hypothesize that they may also possess a similar kind of private evidence of first person experience to ours. It's an assumption based on the fact that they seem to have lots of other similarities to us that are observable.OuterLimits wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:08 pmIt gets interesting when we get to the question of whether 1st person reports of consciousness can be explained just fine (by a 2nd person using scientific methods) without implying actual consciousness. Then you're moving toward a black hole of solipsism. Other people have potentially well-explained behaviors but give no evidence of consciousness per se, and hence there is nothing to explain or believe in regarding other minds.thought addict wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:36 pmNo, first person consciousness is apparently more than the function of a brain because all brain functions can be explained just fine from a third person perspective. Brain functions are things like behavior and information processing. They work just fine without there being any conscious mind at all.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am It is possible since all that is required are a mind which is the function of a brain and a physical body to have experiences
But materialism does not recognize that first person frame of reference. Personal identity also, which of those frames of reference is yours rather than mine is ignored also.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 am But all of human experience is first person anyway because it occurs from a frame of reference unique to every individual
It's very counter-intuitive and strange when you consider the fact that all of the "evidence" for our phenomenal first person consciousness that we can speak or write down does nothing towards proving its existence. Our private experience itself is the only real proof. For example, a video camera could be considered as something that possesses a simple kind of first person perspective. It has a unique point of view of the world, captures an image at one location in time and space, just as our eyes and brains do. Does it experience the images it captures? Who knows. If you linked it up to some AI software that could reflect on its own state, maybe it could develop some level of consciousness. Again, there's no way to prove it. Only the individual can know.