How to exit the religious mess!

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

The reason I'm saying this is because awareness would seem to be the fundamental substratum of ''actual beingness'' to be what it is.. and that it has to be primary and prior beyond any sense recognition for recognition to be recognised. And that it is impossible for it not to be present, whether it be in waking or dreaming reality. It must be the same awareness that sees a dream during sleep and the images of the waking world? ..is this correct?

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:53 pm
There is of course the private experience common to all of us of waking from a dream and experiencing the contrast between dream and waking reality.
(Dontaskme)

Is it awareness that make this distinction between waking and dreaming reality?
Since it is awareness that has been aroused to waking state, then isn't that awareness only that which is living life?

I believe that it is indeed awareness which makes this distinction between waking and dreaming reality. When someone hallucinates they are awake but at the same time are unaware of what is outside their head and rely upon memories for information, so hallucinations lack information from the outside as it were, which is why hallucinations can be so frightening.

" Since it is awareness that has been aroused to waking state, then isn't that awareness only that which is living life?" Subjectively yes, but objectively no.

I recommend The Chemistry of Conscious States by J. Allan Hobson, 1994

and Consciousness by Susan Blackmore, 2003

However I cannot know whether or not you would like those books.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I do not believe anything.
No your dumbass believes far too much tripe!

Tell me one thing I believe!

You seem to believe that you're smart, yet you're obviously not!
Now a smart-ass is another thing entirely!

[Dontaskme]

" Since it is awareness that has been aroused to waking state, then isn't that awareness only that which is living life?" Subjectively yes, but objectively no.

Thanks for the reply...I would just like to look at this interesting statement from you.

Earlier I was talking about how awareness is both the seer of our nightly dreams and the seer of the images of the waking world.

Now, since you have mentioned that awareness is not present in dreaming sleep, then what is seeing the nightly dream, if awareness is not present?

And if there is no awareness present during dream state...then why is it only present in awake state especially since we've already agreed there is no objective awareness...and that awareness is that which is aware of both the dream state and waking state?

_______________

Sorry if this seems like we are going over the same thing all the time, re-repeating something here, but I'm trying to get to the clarity of the matter so we can both see the same point of what's being pointed to. Sometimes it will seem like we have to repeat and repeat something until it is seen by both of us. But in order to get to the real true point we must make absolutely sure we see the same point. Thanks.

I recommend The Chemistry of Conscious States by J. Allan Hobson, 1994

and Consciousness by Susan Blackmore, 2003

However I cannot know whether or not you would like those books.

Thanks.

[Dontaskme]

By the way I can and do masturbate very easily, with "myself", without the need for porno mags, so i do not need to find any.

I know, I'm not suggesting you'd need the porn images to reach a climax which is naturally occurring with or without extra stimulation, however, the porn images would indeed enhance the pleasure.

Do you need to find pornographic magazines in order to masturbate?

Like I said, one doesn't need them, but they are an optional bonus.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

Now, since you have mentioned that awareness is not present in dreaming sleep, then what is seeing the nightly dream, if awareness is not present?

And if there is no awareness present during dream state...then why is it only present in awake state especially since we've already agreed there is no objective awareness...and that awareness is that which is aware of both the dream state and waking state?

I think that what is seeing the nightly dream is the dreamer who has woken up, and immediately transforms a nonsense of a dream into something resembling a story. I mean, the dream and the awake interpretation of dream is not the same.

I thought I did say that there is objective awareness which is verified by the presence of brain chemicals, electronic brain scan, and correlation with report from the subject.

It's not to be doubted that often enough we are aware when we have been dreaming. Memory is one of our sources of information. The other source of our information is the world outside of our heads. When we remember a dream we are unable to remember the pure dream which has memory only as its information source and we cannot use the part of our brain minds which make up intelligible stories and explanations. It is only after we wake up that we remember the dream but by that time we simply cannot remember the simple dream content minus our interpretation of it.

I do not know, Dontaskme, whether you would agree that a religious mess exists. I believe that there is a religious mess. I think that religions in some form are here to stay, if only as stories that make sense of the necessary common morality. I do think that religions are in a state of transition from faith in a settled and everlasting set of morals towards moralities which suit both human feelings and scientific facts. In order to do so we don't have to abandon traditional rituals or behaviours but we need to set those in place with regard to larger concerns of survival of this whole biosphere. It is as "scientific facts" that I think it's worth while to pursue the physical and objective nature of human brain/minds.

[Dontaskme]

I think that what is seeing the nightly dream is the dreamer who has woken up, and immediately transforms a nonsense of a dream into something resembling a story. I mean, the dream and the awake interpretation of dream is not the same.

Thanks for your reply, I'll come back to your other comments later, but I want to look at this interesting thing you've said here first.

Now, what you've said is the dreamer has woken up and realised it had been the one seeing the dream.....and that it had to wake up first to know it had been dreaming, because in sleep there is no awareness that one is dreaming, it is only upon waking up that the dream is known to have happened ......so surely the one that then recognises it had been dreaming upon waking from the dream in waking life...is the same one that saw the dream?



If like you say there is no sense of selfness aka awareness having a dream at night....who or what knows it had a dream upon waking from sleep? ..surely it's the same awareness?


There must have been an awareness there during the dream for the knowledge of that dream to be known via recognition upon waking by the same awareness?

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[Dontaskme]

I thought I did say that there is objective awareness which is verified by the presence of brain chemicals, electronic brain scan, and correlation with report from the subject.

Alright then, yes you are correct to say this...an objective awareness in relation to the subject awareness reporting to the brain the story of events as recognised by the objective brain itself....the objective awareness being the conscious aspect aka memory)of the unconscious subject awareness knowing..is this correct ?

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[Dontaskme]

It's not to be doubted that often enough we are aware when we have been dreaming. Memory is one of our sources of information. The other source of our information is the world outside of our heads. When we remember a dream we are unable to remember the pure dream which has memory only as its information source and we cannot use the part of our brain minds which make up intelligible stories and explanations. It is only after we wake up that we remember the dream but by that time we simply cannot remember the simple dream content minus our interpretation of it.

Just as we are not able to remember our dreams...we are not able to remember the events of waking life....since all empirical data is stored as memory ..In this immediate present moment nothing ever happens...what happens is from memory brought to life now....NOW CANNOT HAPPEN...it's ONE SEAMLESS ENDLESS CONSTANT FLOW....what does happen now instantaneously becomes past ...so The only thing alive here is memory...memory is always from the past, and so it's a kind of death brought back to life NOW... death is this aliveness, or aliveness is this death....they are the same one state appearing different.

It's only ever NOW...future never happens, as future can only happen NOW...past doesn't exist, because past is only memory...neither does future exist. So all we have here living life is Only this silent background awareness aware of the embodied experience called life.

There is no "me" to experience AWARENESS - there's only AWARENESS.. What is experienced as embodied being typically is projection, not perception. The mind-created-sense-of "me" (personal-identity) is an illusion, a mental projection, not actual. Meaning we take something as so..that isn't so.

So, "what" is writing these words here? "What" is reading these words now? "What" worries about understanding "this" or "that", "what's" afraid of "them" and "those"? A made-up person, with a made-up history and a made-up personality. Made up by mind. It is mind writing these words and mind interpreting these words.

That which is aware of all of "this and that", saying nothing, thinking nothing, doing nothing about any of it, is Self simply noticing mind illuminated by awareness (Self).

And what is noticed is mind and that which is not-mind (Self) watching mind. And that which is not-mind contains mind. In a sense, not-mind is an ever opened doorway, never closed.
.

[Arising_uk]

Well you didn't study what I studied then ....

What did you study?

which was to discover that thoughts are not 'our' thoughts,

How did you discover this?

and what is only a belief that thoughts are 'our' thoughts is just more thoughts about thoughts.

Study or discover a bit harder as you'll find your thoughts are the sequenced representations from an external world.

Yeah, forget about all that stuff, it's all made-up bollocks..I noticed this as early as I could first stand and walk on my own two feet,..and that's why I decided to do my own research, I'm a self taught one, my knowledge coming straight from the sources mouth, of which I make no claim to own.

What research did you do and what was the source?

[surreptitious57]

Long as I am learning something then that is all that matters
And so how much or how little it is is not something I concern myself with

Ah okay that explains a great deal thank you

I replied to what you said here by saying that explains a great deal BUT then I just noticed on another thread where you wrote the words
The less I know then the more I have to learn for I want to learn as much as I can before I die which totally contradicts the other thing you said

More examples of how the brain tries all it can to deflect away from the actual truth if the actual truth does not support or fit in with what is already being assumed or believed as the truth

You have also written Knowledge acquisition is my goal in life so that is why I want to learn as much as I can

To avoid any confusion or contradiction from now on I will simply say that my goal in life is knowledge acquisition
I can see how other things I have said appear confusing or contradictory to you so I shall say those things no more

[Dontaskme]

Well you didn't study what I studied then ....

What did you study?

I studied that all the knowledge I studied in the past that I thought to be real was in fact not real or true, it was illusory knowledge, and that the only real true thing here is the awareness of knowledge which is just PASSING THOUGHTS...unique to the human condition only.

which was to discover that thoughts are not 'our' thoughts,

How did you discover this?

By watching thoughts come and go and realising I am not my thoughts, so what I think about the world is not the reality of the world. Thoughts are not reality, the belief in the thoughts is what make us believe reality to be a certain way when it isn't since thoughts are not real.

Yeah, forget about all that stuff, it's all made-up bollocks..I noticed this as early as I could first stand and walk on my own two feet,..and that's why I decided to do my own research, I'm a self taught one, my knowledge coming straight from the sources mouth, of which I make no claim to own.

What research did you do and what was the source?

The research was to search for the one who believes it exists as a separate person living inside my head, I searched and couldn't find that person, and realised the person was just a thought that comes and goes, while I always stay..that ''I stay'' was the realisation that I was the pure unchanging, non-moving awareness, aware of the thoughts that come and go, and that only the awareness of thought was real, not the thought.

The source of all this research was this immediate silent presence in which everything arises and falls.

.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme, I have explained as much as I can about consciousness and awareness. If you want to find out more from a more reliable source than I you will have to read good books or find a qualified tutor, which I am not.

Do you know the meaning of the word 'introspection'?

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme, I have explained as much as I can about consciousness and awareness. If you want to find out more from a more reliable source than I you will have to read good books or find a qualified tutor, which I am not.

Do you know the meaning of the word 'introspection'?

Thanks but my search is over.

Fine, go and find yourself a reliable teacher, good idea, because this subject cannot be grasped or taught by reading about it on forums written by nobodies.

I never sought a teacher, I taught myself, much cheaper and quicker.

I share here in the hope this new knowledge starts to filter through the conditioned indoctrinated mind.

Thanks for showing some interest at least. Enlightenment is seeing there is no one ever born ..and this happens in the awareness when it is meant to happen, it cannot happen if it's not meant to happen.

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[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

I never sought a teacher, I taught myself, much cheaper and quicker.

But all you did was introspect.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

I never sought a teacher, I taught myself, much cheaper and quicker.

But all you did was introspect.

You definitely said awareness was not present in dream sleep...I said it was in both dream state and waking and that it was the same one awareness... you did some introspection....and so did I...so which is truth...your introspection or mine?

Just being sceptical about your findings that's all.....I'm doing what people do to me, accuse me of not having evidence when they don't even have their own evidence.



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