How to exit the religious mess!

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

Can AWARENESS be located, can it be seen, tasted, smelt, touched,heard, KNOWN etc?

Awareness is present in waking consciousness but not in dreaming consciousness except in lucid dreaming. States of consciousness can be detected objectively (" seen, tasted, smelt, touched,heard, KNOWN etc. ").

Subjectively, states of consciousness cannot be " located, --- seen, tasted, smelt, touched,heard,---".

I cannot remember what is the point of your question.

As to your claims and questions which arising _UK replied to, I agree with all arising _UK's answers. I think that you have been indoctrinated, as you are not stupid and have the necessary curiosity and initiative to learn undergraduate philosophy.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

Can AWARENESS be located, can it be seen, tasted, smelt, touched,heard, KNOWN etc?

Awareness is present in waking consciousness but not in dreaming consciousness except in lucid dreaming.

You say not in dreaming consciousness.

Why not? ..please explain how awareness is present in dreaming consciousness.

[Belinda]

I said that awareness is not present in dreaming consciousness except in lucid dreaming.

I don't want to misinform you, and I should say I am not a neuroscientist.

[Dontaskme]

undergraduate philosophy.

I'm not interested in high sounding words.

I'm only interested in realities truth.

All truths come from an assumed human self.

I'm only interested in what that self is.

.

[Dontaskme]

I said that awareness is not present in dreaming consciousness except in lucid dreaming.

I don't want to misinform you, and I should say I am not a neuroscientist.

Yes, sorry, I missed a word out.

So please explain why not then?

[Belinda]

undergraduate philosophy.

I'm not interested in high sounding words.

I'm only interested in realities truth.

All truths come from an assumed human self.

I'm only interested in what that self is.

.

Why are you not interested in high sounding words? I assure you I don't use such words to mislead you, quite the opposite. I myself support clear use of English.

In order to understand the self you need to understand how we form the concept of personal identity. One individual sometimes feels multiple selves, and some unwell people don't know who they are. A tiny baby feels that it is part of its mother.

What I am saying is that perhaps there is no enduring self.

[Dontaskme]

I don't want to misinform you, and I should say I am not a neuroscientist.

Why would you think a neuroscientist would know the answer?

[Dontaskme]

Why are you not interested in high sounding words? I assure you I don't use such words to mislead you, quite the opposite. I myself support clear use of English.

It's not necessary to use high sounding words, lets just cut straight to the chase and look at this with an open mind without getting too bogged down in the intellect.

[Belinda]

Why are you not interested in high sounding words? I assure you I don't use such words to mislead you, quite the opposite. I myself support clear use of English.

It's not necessary to use high sounding words, lets just cut straight to the chase and look at this with an open mind without getting too bogged down in the intellect.

Can't do! Intellect is part of my identity at this time. I can chitchat with you if you like.

Why would you think a neuroscientist would know the answer?

Because neuroscientists, often with the help of psychiatry and psychology, profess knowledge and understanding of brain/mind. Neuroscientists seek evidence before they claim a fact. You, on the other hand as with so many religionists , claim a theory that lacks in evidence.

[Dontaskme]

In order to understand the self you need to understand how we form the concept of personal identity. One individual sometimes feels multiple selves, and some unwell people don't know who they are. A tiny baby feels that it is part of its mother.

We know how the sense of separate self is formed...but that's not what I generally talk about.

But I prefer to talk about the immutable self.

What I am saying is that perhaps there is no enduring self.

Yes there is. And that's what I'm trying to point out to people.

[Dontaskme]

Can't do! Intellect is part of my identity at this time. I can chitchat with you if you like.

Okay, I respect your decision to want to intellectualise ... but it's not for me.

[Dontaskme]

I said that awareness is not present in dreaming consciousness except in lucid dreaming.

So lets go back to this question then.

Why not present in dreaming consciousness?

How do you know that? is that a truth?

I'll await your reply.

.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

But I prefer to talk about the immutable self.

I know you do. Please carry on. It is an interesting idea. True, immutable self is an attitude that most people have. It;s an attitude that we need to have so that we can plan ahead . However when we are thinking harder we can see that the unchanging self is a convenience.

Please consider one moral advantage of unbelief in immutable self. If I have been foolish, wrongheaded, unkind, or stupid I can forgive myself as that was the self of that time and place which was wrong. I can forgive and try to do better. I can extend forgiveness to another in the same manner.

If, on the other hand, I am immutable I cannot forgive myself and must carry that burden until I die. For the same reason I cannot forgive another person.

To talk of God, if God is immutable which He is of course, that is okay because God is pure good and cannot be stupid or unkind. But God must by definition be the only immutable.
___________________

You ask about awareness with regard to dreaming consciousness. Awareness is not present in dream sleep because the brain chemical that causes awareness has been depleted during waking consciousness. It may interest you as a religious person to know that the prayer to be protected while sleeping is rational , as the sleeping state does leave us vulnerable to dangers.

[Dontaskme]

Because neuroscientists, often with the help of psychiatry and psychology, profess knowledge and understanding of brain/mind. Neuroscientists seek evidence before they claim a fact. You, on the other hand as with so many religionists , claim a theory that lacks in evidence.

Oh you mean they have the expertise to look at an MRI and say hey look there's the evidence of my awareness.

Wow, that's like looking at a photograph of myself and saying that's who I am, look at my awareness...it's right there in the photograph.

Wow, that's really amazing, if only I had access to such amazing evidencial factual knowledge.

.

[Dontaskme]

You ask about awareness with regard to dreaming consciousness. Awareness is not present in dream sleep because the brain chemical that causes awareness has been depleted during waking consciousness.

When someone calls your name during dreaming sleep...would you just go on sleeping or would you wake up?

If awareness is not there in dreaming sleep ...who hears their name called?.. while asleep.. as you've assumed there is no awareness present while you sleep.

It may interest you as a religious person to know that the prayer to be protected while sleeping is rational , as the sleeping state does leave us vulnerable to dangers.

What protects us during sleep?

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