I think I can. This language we are talking in cannot be created by a solipsist, I think, ergo there is another and if there is another then there is an external world. Now whether what we sense is a simulation or an emulation is by-the-by I think.Impenitent wrote: I understood what you meant, and you cannot prove the "senses" are of an external world...
-Imp
Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
I have argued along similar lines. It makes for weaker evidence of the existence of said 'another' but the language itself is evidence of something external, be it the world I sense or the world that is feeding fiction to the BiV. A solipist with no reality outside of mind has no need for language such as the sort used on this forum.Arising_uk wrote:I think I can. This language we are talking in cannot be created by a solipsist, I think, ergo there is another and if there is another then there is an external world.
If it was either of these, what would be the thing being simulated (or emulated)? If that more real (or native) thing exists, why the need to simulate it? If it doesn't exist, in what way is it a simulation?Now whether what we sense is a simulation or an emulation is by-the-by I think.
-
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
again, the external world is not proven...Arising_uk wrote:I think I can. This language we are talking in cannot be created by a solipsist, I think, ergo there is another and if there is another then there is an external world. Now whether what we sense is a simulation or an emulation is by-the-by I think.Impenitent wrote: I understood what you meant, and you cannot prove the "senses" are of an external world...
-Imp
I think therefore there is something that thinks... thanks rene
I use communal language therefore the language must be returned by another "thinker" in the "community" of speakers... really?
(god must guarantee this of course and thereby deny the evil demon (e.g. biv) that is vexing rene)
dismissing the brain in a vat argument by claiming that it is "by-the-by" does not disprove it
-Imp
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
I think an external world is if you accept the premise that a solipsist cannot create the language we are currently using.Impenitent wrote:again, the external world is not proven... ...
Agreed, although I think it stronger, "I am a thing that thinks".I think therefore there is something that thinks... thanks rene
Yes, although I think it might not matter if it is a thinker but it must exist other than oneself.I use communal language therefore the language must be returned by another "thinker" in the "community" of speakers... really?
I think if he'd thought about it from the language point of view he'd not have needed 'god'.(god must guarantee this of course and thereby deny the evil demon (e.g. biv) that is vexing rene)
Since I already think the Body is a 'brain-in-a-vat' I'm not sure what there is to disprove?dismissing the brain in a vat argument by claiming that it is "by-the-by" does not disprove it
-Imp
-
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
again, the external world is not proven...Arising_uk wrote:I think an external world is if you accept the premise that a solipsist cannot create the language we are currently using.Impenitent wrote:again, the external world is not proven... ...
why? your communication with the evil demon continues...
just because you think you are not the only mind in the universe - speaking with another "mind" doesn't prove the existence of the other "mind" as existing in the empirically "experienced" world...
you have "sensory" experience, nothing more... from where it occurs cannot be demonstrated.
Agreed, although I think it stronger, "I am a thing that thinks".I think therefore there is something that thinks... thanks rene
a thing... what thing is this? the thing that is being deceived into thinking it thinks?
Yes, although I think it might not matter if it is a thinker but it must exist other than oneself.I use communal language therefore the language must be returned by another "thinker" in the "community" of speakers... really?
so you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon.
I think if he'd thought about it from the language point of view he'd not have needed 'god'.(god must guarantee this of course and thereby deny the evil demon (e.g. biv) that is vexing rene)
and the evil demon has convinced you that through his whispers, the universe is certain?
Since I already think the Body is a 'brain-in-a-vat' I'm not sure what there is to disprove?dismissing the brain in a vat argument by claiming that it is "by-the-by" does not disprove it
-Imp
-Imp
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Didn't say it did? Just said it's in a world external to me.Impenitent wrote:why? your communication with the evil demon continues...
just because you think you are not the only mind in the universe - speaking with another "mind" doesn't prove the existence of the other "mind" as existing in the empirically "experienced" world...
It can be demonstrated that it doesn't originate with me.you have "sensory" experience, nothing more... from where it occurs cannot be demonstrated.
I don't think one can be deceived that one is thinking. Unless of course you make thinking to mean something other than thinking.a thing... what thing is this? the thing that is being deceived into thinking it thinks?
No, there could be loads of other things out there. I agree that there's me and because I have this language there is at least one other. Because there is one other there is somewhere else other than me so there is a world external to me.so you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon.
Just certain that I am and there is an other other than me.and the evil demon has convinced you that through his whispers, the universe is certain?
You'd have to prove to me that a language such as I'm speaking and thinking in can be produced by a solipsist before I could agree to this.again, the external world is not proven...
-
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
no one claims that you are a solipsist, merely that you and the evil demon are the sum of existenceArising_uk wrote:Didn't say it did? Just said it's in a world external to me.Impenitent wrote:why? your communication with the evil demon continues...
just because you think you are not the only mind in the universe - speaking with another "mind" doesn't prove the existence of the other "mind" as existing in the empirically "experienced" world...
It can be demonstrated that it doesn't originate with me.you have "sensory" experience, nothing more... from where it occurs cannot be demonstrated.
you "know" that your senses are triggered externally... no possibility of hallucination... no possibility of dreaming...
I don't think one can be deceived that one is thinking. Unless of course you make thinking to mean something other than thinking.a thing... what thing is this? the thing that is being deceived into thinking it thinks?
I don't think so either, but who knows what an omnipotent evil demon could do...
No, there could be loads of other things out there. I agree that there's me and because I have this language there is at least one other. Because there is one other there is somewhere else other than me so there is a world external to me.so you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon.
again, you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon... (it is the "necessary" one other)
Just certain that I am and there is an other other than me.and the evil demon has convinced you that through his whispers, the universe is certain?
right, you and the evil demon
You'd have to prove to me that a language such as I'm speaking and thinking in can be produced by a solipsist before I could agree to this.again, the external world is not proven...
-Imp
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Can't claim this as don't(can't?) know. But let's say it's true, then there is an external world, as I exist with this language and I can't speak this language without an other so if an other exists then there is an external world. Is it the one I perceive? Can't tell, could all be a sim or an em(which is an interesting question I think as the difference could tell me about whether the external world I perceive is the 'same' as the external one - internally). But the demon is in the same boat, as if it has the language first and the only reason I am speaking it is that it has programmed it into me then where did it know it from?(just a thought)Impenitent wrote: no one claims that you are a solipsist, merely that you and the evil demon are the sum of existence
-Imp
p.s.
Sorry didn't see your other replies straight away as you have them roughly the same colour within the quote. Will read and comment soon.
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Of course but if any of them have words in them then I know I'm not alone.Impenitent wrote:you "know" that your senses are triggered externally... no possibility of hallucination... no possibility of dreaming...
Even the omnipotent are constrained by Logic.I don't think so either, but who knows what an omnipotent evil demon could do...
Good enough for me as just trying to escape Descartes solipsism but without using a 'God'.again, you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon... (it is the "necessary" one other)
Right, me and an external world.right, you and the evil demon ...
-
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Rene wasn't escaping solipsism (he was placating the church)...Arising_uk wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2017 2:11 amOf course but if any of them have words in them then I know I'm not alone.Impenitent wrote:you "know" that your senses are triggered externally... no possibility of hallucination... no possibility of dreaming...
how? belief in language does not necessitate the existence of anything...
Even the omnipotent are constrained by Logic.I don't think so either, but who knows what an omnipotent evil demon could do...
how do you know this? because logic dictates it?
Good enough for me as just trying to escape Descartes solipsism but without using a 'God'.again, you agree that the universe consists of yourself and the evil demon... (it is the "necessary" one other)Right, me and an external world.right, you and the evil demon ...
no, you haven't shown the existence of an external "world" but an external evil demon...
-Imp
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Yes it does, unless you are claiming that this language we are speaking with can be created by a solipsistic entity?Impenitent wrote:how? belief in language does not necessitate the existence of anything...
No, because if you are a thing then Logic applies to you.how do you know this? because logic dictates it?
No he wasn't. He was stuck at 'I am'.Rene wasn't escaping solipsism (he was placating the church)...
Who lives where?no, you haven't shown the existence of an external "world" but an external evil demon.
-
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Who is on firstArising_uk wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2017 1:43 amYes it does, unless you are claiming that this language we are speaking with can be created by a solipsistic entity?Impenitent wrote:how? belief in language does not necessitate the existence of anything...
there is language for unicorns, does that necessitate their existence?
No, because if you are a thing then Logic applies to you.how do you know this? because logic dictates it?
logic is a language game, nothing more... the "external" world (which you have yet to prove exists) would be outside of names one applies to it...
No he wasn't. He was stuck at 'I am'.Rene wasn't escaping solipsism (he was placating the church)...
yes, he was... Rene saw what the church did to Galileo and Rene's geometry ran counter to church teaching
Who lives where?no, you haven't shown the existence of an external "world" but an external evil demon.
-Imp
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
Don't know, I'm not a unicorn. But if one shows up and can talk then sure.Impenitent wrote:there is language for unicorns, does that necessitate their existence?
I disagree with this understanding of Logic, I'm with Boole and others in this respect. As whilst it can be used for propositions it's also the rule of thought and reality and occurs because there are things so Logic arises, no things no Logic.logic is a language game, nothing more... the "external" world (which you have yet to prove exists) would be outside of names one applies to it...
Not my reading, could be true, but for me he used 'God' as a way to get out from the solipsism that his 'I Am' left him in.yes, he was... Rene saw what the church did to Galileo and Rene's geometry ran counter to church teaching
Then he's someplace.Who is on first.
p.s.
I'd be interested in why you think his geometry ran counter to the Church's teachings?
-
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
I misspoke - rationalism not geometryArising_uk wrote: ↑Thu May 18, 2017 2:58 amDon't know, I'm not a unicorn. But if one shows up and can talk then sure.Impenitent wrote:there is language for unicorns, does that necessitate their existence?
I disagree with this understanding of Logic, I'm with Boole and others in this respect. As whilst it can be used for propositions it's also the rule of thought and reality and occurs because there are things so Logic arises, no things no Logic.logic is a language game, nothing more... the "external" world (which you have yet to prove exists) would be outside of names one applies to it...
we agree to disagree
Not my reading, could be true, but for me he used 'God' as a way to get out from the solipsism that his 'I Am' left him in.yes, he was... Rene saw what the church did to Galileo and Rene's geometry ran counter to church teaching
Then he's someplace.Who is on first.
p.s.
I'd be interested in why you think his geometry ran counter to the Church's teachings?
http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/descartes.htm
-Imp
- Arising_uk
- Posts: 12314
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am
Re: Simulation theory and detecting virtual machines
In what sense, you think there can be Logic without things?Impenitent wrote:we agree to disagree