Does God Exist?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Arising_uk »

Felasco wrote:1) You are making a wildly sweeping speculative assertion about "all states of affairs", an arena of unimaginable scale which neither you or any of us could possibly be qualified to come to a credible conclusion on.
You say this because you have no grasp of how imaginally large Logic is. It's as large as reality and is exactly why we can come to credible conclusions.
2) You are labeling your wildly sweeping speculative assertion as "reason".
No, I'm using reason and logic to make wild and sweeping assertions. As such they have credibility in an unknown but not unknowable reality.
3) From that fantasy infested label, you take the liberty of lecturing others on their ability to reason.
Up your arse you mystic pompous pretentious prig. I do not lecture, I tell you what I think is the truth. Cope with it as you will.
It's all just complete hogwash.
You don't even understand the philosophical issues so I'll treat this statement with the salt thats needed.
Felasco
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Felasco »

You say this because you have no grasp of how imaginally large Logic is. It's as large as reality and is exactly why we can come to credible conclusions.
Logic is as large as reality you say. Ok then, if you know that, tell us how large reality is please.

We have limited knowledge of an area we call the "known" universe. This is the sample of reality you are basing your assertion on.

Nobody has any idea what the relationship is between this sample, and the whole, all of reality. Thus, you are coming to a sweeping firm conclusion about all of reality based on a sample of unknown size, and calling that reason.

Your sample might be significant in relation to the whole and thus probably representative, or your sample might be so small in relation to the whole that we don't currently have the math to represent the relationship. Of course nobody has the slightest clue what the relationship between the sample and the whole actually is.

Further, what do we actually know about the sample? How "known" is the known universe? As example, we have only fairly recently discovered the microscopic realm, though of course it's been there all along. Are you under the impression that such ground breaking discoveries are now all in the past and that no new realms within the "known" universe will be discovered? If you are under that impression, then please address the following question.

When will science end? How long will it be until the scientists hold a press conference to announce their work is done? This could easily be hundreds or even thousands of years in the future, right?

And, we can reasonably propose that as science progresses the rate of knowledge development will continue to accelerate, as it already has.

If you accept that last two paragraphs as generally reasonable, it logically follows that what we know now is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what can be known. That is, we know almost nothing currently.

And, oh wait, we forgot to ask what the relationship is between what humans can know, and what reality actually is. As usual, we have no idea, not a clue what that relationship might be.

Arising, your adamant atheist assertion that logic applies to all of reality is nothing more than a passionate statement of faith, just like theism. I could respect it if you would honestly label it as faith, but not if you try to call it reason.

I propose that the source of your fantasy knowing is much the same as that which fuels theist fantasy knowings.

It's the human condition to be afraid, because the nature of thought creates an experience of separation, isolation, aloneness. We want to know what the rules of the game are so that we can navigate our way to safety.

Theists cling to their God and holy books in the hopes that if they follow these rules all will be well.

Atheists cling to natural law and science in the hopes that if they follow these rules all will be well.

In both cases, each side clings to the illusion that they know what the rules are, because to face the unknown is too challenging.

In human terms, all of this is very understandable. And truth be told, I sometimes feel like a huge asshole for my ability to rip these fantasies to shreds.

But this is a philosophy forum. And we are men. And I take you at your word, as a token of real respect, that you can take whatever I can dish out. And so, philosophically speaking, using reason as best we can, it must be said...

Theism and atheism are fundamentally the same, and together are just a big noisy pile of fearful, dishonest or deluded, fantasy knowings.

To the degree there is a difference between the two, it seems to be that theists generally know their position is built upon faith, whereas atheists generally don't. This makes sense, given that theism is far older than atheism as an organized effort.

The truth is we simply don't know the truth, and are usually too small to simply admit it.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Arising_uk »

Felasco wrote:Logic is as large as reality you say. Ok then, if you know that, tell us how large reality is please.
I already gave you the best estimates.
We have limited knowledge of an area we call the "known" universe. This is the sample of reality you are basing your assertion on.
No, I'm basing my assertion upon what Logic is in relation to a state of affairs or things. I do not need to imagine the unknown because unlike you I can't.
Nobody has any idea what the relationship is between this sample, and the whole, all of reality. Thus, you are coming to a sweeping firm conclusion about all of reality based on a sample of unknown size, and calling that reason.
And yet you can make this sweeping assertion? If any of your unknown becomes known then it become a state of affairs or things and hence it will obey the laws of Logic, else it won't be a state of affairs or things and hence not knowable.
Your sample might be significant in relation to the whole and thus probably representative, or your sample might be so small in relation to the whole that we don't currently have the math to represent the relationship. Of course nobody has the slightest clue what the relationship between the sample and the whole actually is.
It doesn't matter because there might not even be a 'whole' but if there is then it'll have Logic.
Further, what do we actually know about the sample? How "known" is the known universe? As example, we have only fairly recently discovered the microscopic realm, though of course it's been there all along. Are you under the impression that such ground breaking discoveries are now all in the past and that no new realms within the "known" universe will be discovered? If you are under that impression, then please address the following question.
Are you saying these 'worlds' do not obey Logic?
When will science end? How long will it be until the scientists hold a press conference to announce their work is done? This could easily be hundreds or even thousands of years in the future, right?
What has science got to do with the subject of Logic?
And, we can reasonably propose that as science progresses the rate of knowledge development will continue to accelerate, as it already has.
You are separating the same thing? The rate of knowledge development in science is its progress.
If you accept that last two paragraphs as generally reasonable, it logically follows that what we know now is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what can be known. That is, we know almost nothing currently.
You are talking about unknowns again? How are you doing that? The last two paragraphs are about epistemology and make the false assumption that we need to know everything before we know anything.
And, oh wait, we forgot to ask what the relationship is between what humans can know, and what reality actually is. As usual, we have no idea, not a clue what that relationship might be.
Its called Reason and Logic.
Arising, your adamant atheist assertion that logic applies to all of reality is nothing more than a passionate statement of faith, just like theism. I could respect it if you would honestly label it as faith, but not if you try to call it reason.
Its got nothing to do with Atheism, this is your straw-man, its to do with Philosophy. That you cannot understand this is more to do with your Idealism.
I propose that the source of your fantasy knowing is much the same as that which fuels theist fantasy knowings.
Nah! Theirs is based upon faith, mine upon reason.
It's the human condition to be afraid, because the nature of thought creates an experience of separation, isolation, aloneness.
Speak for yourself. Thought lets me know that I'm not alone.
We want to know what the rules of the game are so that we can navigate our way to safety.
What safety?
Theists cling to their God and holy books in the hopes that if they follow these rules all will be well.

Atheists cling to natural law and science in the hopes that if they follow these rules all will be well.

In both cases, each side clings to the illusion that they know what the rules are, because to face the unknown is too challenging.

In human terms, all of this is very understandable. And truth be told, I sometimes feel like a huge asshole for my ability to rip these fantasies to shreds.
A very smug and pompous one at that. But I think you overrate yourself.
But this is a philosophy forum. And we are men. And I take you at your word, as a token of real respect, that you can take whatever I can dish out. And so, philosophically speaking, using reason as best we can, it must be said...

Theism and atheism are fundamentally the same, and together are just a big noisy pile of fearful, dishonest or deluded, fantasy knowings.
And so now you have managed to move completely away from my points and onto your pet topic.
To the degree there is a difference between the two, it seems to be that theists generally know their position is built upon faith, whereas atheists generally don't. This makes sense, given that theism is far older than atheism as an organized effort.
Atheism isn't an organised effort, thats the difference.

There appear to be two kinds of Atheists and one has two sub-groups, Ex-Theists who split into the angry, disappointed and let down and those who aren't, and the Atheist who was not raised with 'God' as an explanation for anything, the latter do not think about 'God' at all. Unless of course they get into a conversation with the theist.
The truth is we simply don't know the truth, and are usually too small to simply admit it.
Not heard of Agnosticism? It was very popular in Philosophy once.
Felasco
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Felasco »

No, I'm basing my assertion upon what Logic is in relation to a state of affairs or things.
Arising, this is nothing more than a faith based statement, please get that in to your head.

You believe, as a matter of faith, that the rules of human logic are relevant to and binding upon any "state of affairs or things". Given that you have no possible way to examine all such "state of affairs or things" you aren't in a position to know what human logic's relationship to all "states of affairs" might be. You are doing nothing more than repeating the same faith based statement over and over, and calling it reason.

In your defense, this is a very common procedure, used also by many very intelligent, educated, and famous etc people.
And yet you can make this sweeping assertion?
Damnit Arising, please stop clogging the thread with your compulsively reactive nonsense. I made the "sweeping assertion" that none of us know what our sample size is. That's fucking true, and I know you know it, so please think before you post or expect more public embarrassment as your reward.

End of exchange, please come back when you have something useful to say. I know you're capable of it, because I've seen you do it. I don't want the lazy Arising with the beer can on the keyboard, give me the real guy please.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Arising_uk »

Felasco wrote:Arising, this is nothing more than a faith based statement, please get that in to your head.
And you get it into yours that your assertion is based upon a false understanding of what Logic and Reason are and what they can and cannot say about Existence.
You believe, as a matter of faith, that the rules of human logic are relevant to and binding upon any "state of affairs or things". Given that you have no possible way to examine all such "state of affairs or things" you aren't in a position to know what human logic's relationship to all "states of affairs" might be. You are doing nothing more than repeating the same faith based statement over and over, and calling it reason.
No I'm not. You clearly do not understand what Logic is and how it arises exactly from existence and is not 'human logic' but the Logic of there being existence.
In your defense, this is a very common procedure, used also by many very intelligent, educated, and famous etc people.
I've already told you, I've no need for your defence, especially since it is based upon a false premise.
Damnit Arising, please stop clogging the thread with your compulsively reactive nonsense. I made the "sweeping assertion" that none of us know what our sample size is. That's fucking true, and I know you know it, so please think before you post or expect more public embarrassment as your reward.
No it's not true as what you talk about you cannot but because you fail to understand this you keep on with your repeats. I've also told you that you are confusing the empirical with the logical and they are not the same things but again because you fail to understand how Logic occurs you cannot understand this.
End of exchange, please come back when you have something useful to say. I know you're capable of it, because I've seen you do it. I don't want the lazy Arising with the beer can on the keyboard, give me the real guy please.
You're talking to him but as usual you're not interested in philosophy but just punting your pet epistemological idea.
MarkCaplan
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by MarkCaplan »

Suppose God does exist. Then what? Then nothing, as far as I can tell. Everything else is unchanged. Life goes on as before. There is no substantive, verifiable, credible evidence that God intervenes physically in this world. God may not be dead, but proof of God's existence leads to a dead end.
Kurt
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Kurt »

MarkCaplan wrote:Suppose God does exist. Then what? Then nothing, as far as I can tell. Everything else is unchanged. Life goes on as before. There is no substantive, verifiable, credible evidence that God intervenes physically in this world. God may not be dead, but proof of God's existence leads to a dead end.
Yep.

What if someone alive today knew for sure the answers to all of your God questions, what our reality actually is and our place within it. Nobody would believe them anyway so in the end all this is pointless. If the answers were placed right in front of us we would not see them because evidence in that situation would not work.
3Sum
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by 3Sum »

What if someone alive today knew for sure the answers to all of your God questions, what our reality actually is and our place within it. Nobody would believe them anyway so in the end all this is pointless. If the answers were placed right in front of us we would not see them because evidence in that situation would not work.
I have this wild assumption that a person with such a level of knowledge would be capable of demonstrating at least some of it to the rest of us.
Greylorn Ell
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Greylorn Ell »

MarkCaplan wrote:Suppose God does exist. Then what? Then nothing, as far as I can tell. Everything else is unchanged. Life goes on as before. There is no substantive, verifiable, credible evidence that God intervenes physically in this world. God may not be dead, but proof of God's existence leads to a dead end.
If your assertion is correct, were God's existence to be scientifically proven and it made no difference, this would mark the first time in human history that a magnificent scientific discovery had no effect upon human affairs. Considering that the invention of stone axes made a difference, your assertion seems inconsistent with reality.

And, God does exist in the minds of billions of religious adherents. For them, God's existence is as much a reality, perhaps more real than electromagnetic waves are for scientists. Unless you have been totally oblivious to human affairs in the world around you, and have zero knowledge of human history, you must know that the perceived reality of a God makes significant differences. Ever heard of Sunnis and Shiites, or the Crusades? It follows that the verified reality of a God would make a tremendous difference. For starters, atheism would be seen as an irrational, uninformed belief system, and someone will get rich selling "I Told You So!" buttons.

Of course, the existence of the God that Craig and most believers accept cannot be proven, because religionists have defined it to be unprovable. If someone claims to have scientifically detected God, religionists will claim that their experiment was faulty because God is a spirit-being and cannot possibly be detected by physical instruments.

However, it is possible to conceive of a different kind of God, an entity limited by logic and some fundamental laws of physics, neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Not only is such a creator simpler to define, it provides a more credible explanation of the evolution mechanisms than Darwinism. Considerations about the origin of such an entity, or entities, leads to an alternative explanation for the origin of consciousness, and supports the notion that consciousness preceded the structural assembly of the universe. Such a creator-concept is verifiable, and verification could happen in your lifetime.
Felasco
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Felasco »

Of course, the existence of the God that Craig and most believers accept cannot be proven, because religionists have defined it to be unprovable.
This statement implies an intent by theists that was never there. What theists have done instead is propose that natural law has a source, and that source is not bound by the laws which it itself created. Christian theists claim this theory has been proven by the resurrection of Jesus, and that it can be verified in the hearts of believers.

In other words, your expression "defined it to be unprovable" is just more sloppiness or worse from someone who continually claims to be a well educated reasoner superior to the religious nitwits etc.
However, it is possible to conceive of a different kind of God, an entity limited by logic and some fundamental laws of physics, neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
Instead of continually hinting at the existence of your thesis, why not get on with doing what you came here to do, spell it out?
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attofishpi
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by attofishpi »

MarkCaplan wrote:Suppose God does exist. Then what? Then nothing, as far as I can tell. Everything else is unchanged. Life goes on as before. There is no substantive, verifiable, credible evidence that God intervenes physically in this world. God may not be dead, but proof of God's existence leads to a dead end.
Suppose that 'God' has been reflecting your life choices all along...

..and God is panentheistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

And its existence surrounds us in the form of anomalies...that are so coincidentally invalid its laughable.

http://www.androcies.com/
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Arising_uk
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Arising_uk »

Greylorn Ell wrote:... For starters, atheism would be seen as an irrational, uninformed belief system, and someone will get rich selling "I Told You So!" buttons. ...
Its not a 'belief system' in the sense that theism is.
Felasco
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Felasco »

Its not a 'belief system' in the sense that theism is.
Atheism is another competing faith based belief system.

The faith based belief at the heart of atheism is that human reason is qualified to analyze issues of infinite scale, questions about the ultimate nature of everything.

The atheist system of practice is a series of logical calculations which arise from this fundamental faith based belief. These calculations may differ from atheist to atheist, just as theists do a variety of religious based calculations which arise from their fundamental faith based belief in the existence of a God.

The theist believes their holy book can make meaningful authoritative statements about all of reality, while the atheist believes natural law can make meaningful authoritative statements about all of reality, and meanwhile...

Neither party can define what "all of reality" actually refers to, an inconvenient fact which is quickly swept under the rug by all parties.

Even if it could be proven that one party's conclusions about the known universe are entirely accurate, we have no way of knowing what the relationship is between the known universe and all of reality. That is, we have not a clue what our sample size is.

Thus, all assertions about "all of reality" are best described as faith based beliefs.

One difference between atheism and theism is that theism is a far older enterprise, and thus has over a great deal of time developed a more insightful and honest relationship with faith based beliefs, while the much younger atheism struggles to recognize it too is built upon faith based beliefs.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Arising_uk »

Felasco wrote:Atheism is another competing faith based belief system. ...
So you keep repeating ad nauseum but its wrong.
The faith based belief at the heart of atheism is that human reason is qualified to analyze issues of infinite scale, questions about the ultimate nature of everything.
And here's why. As all thats at the heart of atheism is a disbelief that the theists claims for their 'God' are true when they utter them, based upon the simple premise that they cannot show any 'God' when asked to.
The atheist system of practice is a series of logical calculations which arise from this fundamental faith based belief. These calculations may differ from atheist to atheist, just as theists do a variety of religious based calculations which arise from their fundamental faith based belief in the existence of a God.
Nope, this happens when the atheist is confronted by the theists claims, otherwise the atheist thinks nothing at all about the subject let alone practices.
The theist believes their holy book can make meaningful authoritative statements about all of reality, while the atheist believes natural law can make meaningful authoritative statements about all of reality, and meanwhile...
And yet you can make statements about 'all of reality'? The atheist who tries to use science to disprove religion is just a bad philosopher. However, science can show how things happen that dents the why explanation of the theist, i,e, 'God' did it. Whether this is a good enough explanation depends upon what one thinks an explanation is but history is showing that it certainly makes life difficult for the theist authorities.
Neither party can define what "all of reality" actually refers to, an inconvenient fact which is quickly swept under the rug by all parties.
And yet you are making such an assertion?
Even if it could be proven that one party's conclusions about the known universe are entirely accurate, we have no way of knowing what the relationship is between the known universe and all of reality. That is, we have not a clue what our sample size is.
Once more you claim what you say cannot be claimed, to wit, this "relationship is between the known universe and all of reality", how are you doing this?
Thus, all assertions about "all of reality" are best described as faith based beliefs.
All of reality is logical and its reason and philosophy that tells us this not faith.
One difference between atheism and theism is that theism is a far older enterprise, and thus has over a great deal of time developed a more insightful and honest relationship with faith based beliefs, while the much younger atheism struggles to recognize it too is built upon faith based beliefs.
So you keep asserting but keep ignoring the fact that there is no actual belief in the sense of a theist belief. Is this your faith doing this?

You also contradict your assertion above that the theist ignores its 'faith-based' assertion? Still, you're not one to let a contradiction get in the way of your ideas.
Felasco
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Re: Does God Exist?

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And here's why. As all thats at the heart of atheism is a disbelief that the theists claims for their 'God' are true when they utter them, based upon the simple premise that they cannot show any 'God' when asked to.
And what is that disbelief based upon?
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