Hi Arising,
A: I definitely feel that when talking to you I'm in a conversation you're having with someone else.
AS: Why?
A:You think this doesn't apply to males as well?
AS:Of course...but again....I want to see if men can stay on the topic of women without changing the topic toward themselves. I am not sure if you noticed...but men have a tendency to do this alot...even the ones who see women as "equals". They have more of a tendency to talk over women, tell women what they think and what she thinks, tell women they aren't "really" experiencing what they are experiencing. They even 'take over' personal space in crowded places.
A:But on the whole my experience over here is that the women speak their minds upon such matters.
AS: How do you know?
A:And sometimes they do it from a sense of duty or that they just love sucking cock and a whole host of other reasons. Where do you get this idea of 'great lovers', just competent will do and its a hard thing to learn but generally involves love, care, commitment and a sense of humour. Over here its a shame more women don't do the same for their men as I have heard that the American women has learned to perform oral sex well.
AS: I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Are you under the impression that I am saying that women not speaking their minds as a negative thing? Like the women are trying to fool you or something? I am not exactly saying this as I feel that not speaking every little thing that is one one's mind is a good thing as well. If a woman didn't filter I think a man would go insane or his brains would explode...I mean...as it is they have a hard time understanding us...just imagine if they knew every single thing we were thinking! But some of what we are thinking is kind too...that we won't tell you. Like for example...we could be thinking that you all are so sweet that we want to bake you cookies for no reason. So we just bake you cookies...we don't always tell you we did it because we think you are sweet. I know that is a lame example...but I couldn't think of anything better....that and the fact that it's Christmas night and I am all but hung over on Christmas cheer at the moment.
A:I don't, its you who said that young women aren't also young, dumb and full of cum.
AS: No...they are young and dumb...but full of cum I am not so sure about. Yes they orgasm but it's just from a different perspective than a woman in her sexual prime.
I really don't understand all the resistance to these ideas I am presenting, as I pretty much see what I am saying as a common place idea.
A:Then I think America must be a sad place for many women.
AS: How so?
A:Apparently not as the situation you describe is exactly what they were addressing. I do not think us more 'enlightened' just a few decades on from when those American and Australian authors published. But I accept with the rise of Internet porn and the change in cultural-mix things may be returning to the patriarchs way of thinking and acting.
AS: I know we have had this conversation before and we disagree. I am more of a liberal with such things. I am not really hung up on what is "right and wrong" and favor more of a allow people to choose their own way of loving as it suits them as consenting adults. So a man and woman who wants to live in a patriarchal world is okay by me...as long as they don't force their ideals on others. But from a personal stand point, I think most women regret that lifestyle eventually and want out or resent the man...at least that is what I have observed with friends of mine who thought their husbands should wear the pants in the household as young women and then realized he was a schmoo who did not understand how to run anything later in life.
Not all men are wise in all areas...and the woman that wants a patriarch demands perfection from their men (in their minds at least...because they can't speak it aloud because it would not fit the ideal image of being subservient to a wonderful leader who takes charge like a hero and saves her and she can look up to. To say, "you really let me down" would be admitting that he was a lousy patriarch and that she had chosen badly...and since no woman wants to think of herself as 'bad' she will be in this major internal existential thing that goes on in her head when she realizes she is better than her "man" and it was by her own doing that she put herself into a no win situation where no matter what she does...she is the bad person! SHe is the bad person for thinking he's a bad leader, she's a bad person for fooling herself into believing she wanted to be led, she's a bad person for fall out of love...blah blah blah...some woman can't handle thinking beyond the superficial as it is too painful to admit they were "bad" and so they just find another "white knight" to ride in a rescue them from their "bad" patriarch and then simply say, "Well I was finally rescued from that bad patriarch and now I have found the "right" one...and then they usually repeat the cycle, simply because if she is one that "demands" perfection which is kinda what the title "patriarch" implies, and there's no such thing as perfection...well then...there is no such thing as a patriarch...not to mention that for her to "demand" her man be her ideal man is not in keeping with being 'subservient' to him as a patriarch....at least not if the woman has a hint of intelligence. I just think at some point inside...she will come to the conclusion its a no win situation.)
A:Make your mind-up? Do you want men to learn how to pleasure women or not?
AS:What I am getting at is a man doesn't necessarily have to "learn" how to please a woman....from the perspective that if he pleased "this one" then he can please "that one." No, a woman will not be pleased with that attitude. She wants to think she is above other women. The man has to be quiet about his thoughts that she is like every other woman he's had. I don't know a woman alive who will say, "Just treat me like all the rest of the women you've had....I'm nothing special." If you are trying to tell me women over there think like that, I say you're nuts and I want to meet these women, as I can't believe men over there have it so easy. I mean to just go up to a woman and use the pick up line, "I'm horny and you'll do." And they just fall into your bed...it must be a fucking paradise for men...literally!
A:I have heard from friends who have lived in your country that the sex for marriage and goods is still a big thing over there and that 'I love you' and 'I want to marry you' is a great way to get sex. My women friends over here tell me that they just like sex and have it when they want and leave it when they don't.
AS: Yes, some women over here are gullible and want to believe men. But they soon wise up... As for your friends, How old are they? I can understand if they are older in their sexual prime but if they are young, I would question if they really believe what they say or if they are just telling you what they think you want to hear or are just too embarrassed to say that their biological clocks are ticking...or some other reason. are these women looking for a relationship? Have they given up on love? Do they not want to be bothered with by having a man in their life?
A:Must be different cultures as I accept that the young may have the thoughts you describe but on the whole I think our women must just be more earthy than yours.
AS:What do you mean by "Earthy".
A:But boy oh boy do you seem to want your cake and eat it.
AS:How so?
A:I think you miss that chaz and I don't just think that the orgasm is what makes good sex between males and females, its just a nice culmination of having a good sexual relationship. Laughing is another.
AS:I think you might be misunderstanding me again. You have a tendency to take what I say and put a negative spin on it. What I am saying about good and bad orgasms a woman has does not have anything to do with being with a "good or bad lover." A woman could be masturbating, being with the best lover, have a vibrator, etc, and usually have 'good' orgasms...and then once in a while she has one that goes flat. It's a matter of fact....not saying it's BECAUSE of a bad lover. It's just a thing that happens to a woman. Natural occurance...not good or bad lovemaking just....IS. Like things could be going along great...and she is thinking, "omg omg god...i'm cumming...and it's going to be good"...and then for some reason...right at the moment...either she knows it is coming too quickly ...or something pops into her head to ruin it...or she almost wills herself to ruin it. And she thinks, "No!!! Don't make it be a bad one!! Son of a bi...!" (in her mind of course...a woman wouldn't usually tell her lover such a thing at the moment...lol) But it happens...and it even happens when you are by yourself or for no apparent reason cause things were good up until the last second. And sometimes...the orgasm can even be a bit painful when it doesn't go all the way to your toes...kinda like a cramping....not anything to cause alarm...just sort of an annoyance. But then all is forgotten cause ya just figure...aw shit...oh well...next time...)
So you see, I am not talking about laughing and loving....I am just talking about what a woman experiences sometimes...as a normal part of her sexuality even with the laughing and loving. Again, this has nothing to do with the man being a bad lover...so try not to bring the man into it cause I think you are doing that thing I said men do...think about how her orgasm pertains to him. I am just asking you to think about what I am saying as it pertains to a woman only. See?
A:
And you accuse chaz of living in fairyland! You think none of this applies to the young man? Who is talking about using a women as a 'cum-dumpster'?
AS: Kayla mentioned somewhere in the beginning of this thread that some boys at her school talk this way about the girls they had slept with. That is where I got that term....I had not heard that one before. But are you saying that men over there don't talk 'Locker room talk" about women?
A:Try it this way, a long-time back I thought I'd have a laugh and read this American book upon male and female relationships, 'Men from Mars, Women from Venus', some of it was interesting but what made me laugh was the format, as it was laid out with what the women says, what the man hears and at the bottom what she actually meant, but from my experience what she actually meant was what she actually said, so I showed it to my female friends and they too laughed and agreed that they would just say it rather than this shilly-shallying around playing some mind-game.
AS:I remember reading that book too and thinking it was silly. But you know how fads are...people get all hung up on following the leader. It is the same way with popular restaurants...not many people will dare say the food sucks when it's a new thing...they will tell you it's great cause everyone is saying it's great. Then when you go...the food sucks and your like, "Really? Are they kidding me?" And when the newness wears off and the popularity fades...the restaurant goes out of business because it sucked and no one goes back....lol"
A:The more I listen to you the more I feel sorry for the more sensitive males in your country, as the 'fuckers', as you put it, won't care about what you are saying but growing-up in what still appears to be a fairly patriarchal society must be very painful for the others. You think this why you have so many massacres? I also think you have the touch of the misandrist about you.
AS: WOw you said a mouthful here...and I am quite surprised as we have known each other so long that I thought I made it clear that I hate men. But I would hope you know me enough now to know I am honest about the way I feel and my thoughts go a little bit deeper than my surface remarks. When I say I hate men...I do...but I mean the mean ones. The nice ones like my husband and others...I don't hate. I love them. I know you don't like to use the word hate...but for me that is natural. I am more demonstrative perhaps?
Anyway, I am honest above all else, and I feel my honesty has served a very important purpose in my life, and that is to surround myself with loving people who genuinely care about me and I them. I just don't have the time or patience to be abused by mean people...life is too short and why should I show the love to the "fuckers" and shun the "others"? No, I am very kind and nice to the kind and nice people....I could care less about the fuckers. Let me put it this way...have I ever been mean to you or richard or Tom? No. Because when you say things that are not so pleasant to hear they aren't abusive. They are either truthful (which I agree with but don't necessarily like) or you misunderstood or whatever...but they are not abusive. When Chaz says things...they are abusive and don't add to his comments in a rational sense. He's just mean. Do you see the difference?