Perspective...

[chaz wyman]

female genital mutilation is stupid barbarian and primitive

From your point of view.

why do you think that female genital mutilation is ok

I wouldn't allow any one to do it to my child.

forced marriage is stupid barbarian and primitive

From your point of view.

which obviously disagrees with yours

Nope, Stupid

why do you think its acceptable to force a girl or a woman into marriage

you or at least other readers may notice by now that accepting cultural relativism entails accepting a very lousy deal for girls and women

Not from their point of view

Have you had sex before marriage?

having sex before marriage does nothing inherently harmful

Not necessarily.

this cannot be said for cutting off a girls clitoris with a rusty dirty knife

Stop being hysterical. Not so long ago the USA practiced circumcision on 90% of boys.
I wouldn't do it to my child

or forcing a girl to marry against her will

That is not often the consequence of arranged marriage. Most are more successful than Western marriages

And to offer alternatives, through dialogue and example.

why offer alternatives if what they are doing is just as good as anything else anyone else is doing

Sadly the history of cultural contact has robbed the world of much of its diversity by people like missionaries passing judgement on other cultures.

the missionaries were only behaving based on their own cultures logic which you obviously do not understand

Duh!!!! Give the girl a banana!!!

what is your problem with missionaries

See above!
Arrogantly imposing their cultural norms on other people


if you want to argue that the european colonizers methods were counter productive and that they were a bunch of hypocrites that generally did more harm than good that seems like a very reasonable argument but that is not the argument you are making

Yes I would argue that. And they remind me of you, whose country has invaded otehrs to impose their capitalist comsumerist sexist culture

Calling a woman how chooses to wear a burkha "stupid and primitive", or "barbarian" will not result in them wishing to change their minds or their culture.

when did i do that

Why dont you read your own words?

a man forcing a woman to wear a burka is stupid and primitive

Most women wear then voluntarily. No country makes it law. Peer pressure is subtle.

if a woman wants to wear a burka or a microskirt with buttfloss underwear or whatever that should be her right

you should visit the bible belt sometimes

No thanks. Not if it produces hysterical teenagers like you who want to impose their cultural values on other people.
One sort of oppression usually produces another. You have this arrogance because you live with another type o arrogance all around you. From my perspective, your whole country is pretty sick.
But just because I believe that the USA is a backwards looking, oppressive, arrogant and aggressive culture does not give me the right to try to impose my more liberal minded values on you. You have to change yourself from within with what examples you can find.
But you just sound like a fundamentalist, but in inverse.




when it comes to men forcing girls and women to live in a certain way we are ahead of the taliban but by not as much as many people think



we do not need men self righteously going on about how preventing access to sex education and birth control is only wrong from our perspective and how we should focus on the logic of the culture rather than judging it

its easy for you to say you are a man[/quote]

[Kayla]

Most women wear then voluntarily.

who told you that

you do know that the national geographic has a policy of saying nothing if they have nothing nice to say yes

and yes you are right about very few places making burqas mandatory

but wearing a tent is mandatory in large part of the islamic world

so have you ever talked about any of this with a muslim woman

hysterical teenager

is that the best insult you can come up with

[chaz wyman]

Most women wear then voluntarily.

who told you that

you do know that the national geographic has a policy of saying nothing if they have nothing nice to say yes

and yes you are right about very few places making burqas mandatory

but wearing a tent is mandatory in large part of the islamic world

so have you ever talked about any of this with a muslim woman

hysterical teenager

is that the best insult you can come up with

Evidence??

[Kayla]

that was a question not a statement

[chaz wyman]

that was a question not a statement

What was?

When you can start to use punctuation, then we will know if you area trying to say something meaningful.

HINT: questions have question marks.

[Kayla]

question:

is this the best insult you can come up with

not a question:

this is the best insult you can come up with


even with a question mark you should be able to figure it out

and look i used punctuation again! <--- and again

[chaz wyman]

question:

is this the best insult you can come up with

not a question:

this is the best insult you can come up with


even with a question mark you should be able to figure it out

and look i used punctuation again! <--- and again

For all your bluster you still haven't said what this means, or was referring to.

that was a question not a statement

[Bill Wiltrack]

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In an odd type of middle ground here; Annette Kellerman in 1907 was arrested on Revere Beach, Massachusetts, for indecency. She was wearing a one-piece bathing suit.


In 1916, Kellerman became the first major actress to do a nude scene when she appeared fully nude in A Daughter of the Gods. Made by Fox Film Corporation, Daughter of the Gods was the first million-dollar film production. Like many of Kellerman's other films, this is now considered a lost film as no copies are known to exist.


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....................Kellerman in her famous one-piece bathing suit





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.....................Kellerman in nude scene from 'A Daughter of the Gods'






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annette_Ke ... ing_career


On 24 August 1905, aged 18, Annette Kellerman was the first woman to attempt to swim the English Channel. After three unsuccessful swims she declared, "I had the endurance but not the brute strength."

Kellerman was famous for advocating the right of women to wear a one-piece bathing suit, which was controversial at the time. According to an Australian magazine, "In the early 1900s, women were expected to wear cumbersome dress and pantaloon combinations when swimming. In 1907, at the height of her popularity, Kellerman was arrested on Revere Beach, Massachusetts, for indecency - she was wearing one of her fitted one-piece costumes."

The popularity of her one-piece suits resulted in her own line of women's swimwear. The "Annette Kellermans", as they were known, were the first step to modern swimwear.

In 1908, after a study of 3000 women, Dr Dudley A. Sargent of Harvard University dubbed her the Perfect Woman because of the similarity of her physical attributes to the Venus de Milo.





Repression?...Exploitation?...Freedom?

What 100 years do to these terms and still there are no answers, no consensus.




I'm beginning to think that what makes that simple cartoon so poignant is that it is so real.




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[artisticsolution]

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Repression?...Exploitation?...Freedom?

What 100 years do to these terms and still there are no answers, no consensus.







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Thanks for the information and pictures Bill. I didn't know about her.

I wonder if part of the reason there are no consensus about a woman's dress is because most of us...no matter where we live think it is our right to decide how women should dress or be for that matter. Most people think it is within their right to have a say in the matter of a woman's body, whether it is to protect her or control her. I am not sure why this is.

[chaz wyman]

The war on the burkha is part of the same continuum of oppression as the Moslem edict that demands its use.
French law is participating in the same sort of oppression, by removing choice.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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French burka ban descends into farce


France's burka ban descended into farce when the first women to be summoned before a European court for illegally wearing the garments were refused entry, because they would not remove their face coverings.







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By Peter Allen in Paris

12:59PM BST 17 Jun 2011

Hind and Najet, who keep their features hidden at all times and refuse to identify themselves beyond their first names, were due to appear before a judge outside Paris.

Both are accused of violating France's so-called "burka ban", which came into force earlier this year and prevents anyone covering up their faces in public.

But when Hind, a 31-year-old mother, tried to enter the court building in Meaux on Thursday, police held her back, telling her to take her head-covering off.

Najet, meanwhile, simply stayed at home, with the 34-year-old saying she knew she would be stopped from entering.

"For the hearing to go ahead, you must remove the veil. Justice must be administered in a calm atmosphere," police

Hind, who had brought her own handcuffs to wear as part of an organised protest at the court, replied: "I'll keep my veil on at all times. It's non-negotiable.

"The law forbids me from expressing myself, and indeed from defending myself. It forces me to dress a certain way, when all I want to do is live according to my religion."

Police are under strict orders not to remove face coverings themselves, meaning Hind was simply told to leave.

Their court appearance was accordingly abandoned, as state prosecutors began trying to work out how they can deal with the challenge to the new law. They are expected to come to a decision in September.

The accused are both from the Paris suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois, and were arrested in Meaux in May after travelling to an anti-burka ban protest.

They face fines of £140 and an order to attend compulsory citizenship classes, at which they will be â taught' how to behave as upstanding citizens in a secular republic.

Both deny the charge of covering their faces in a public place, saying the burka ban is "unconstitutional'. The case is likely to go all the way to the European Court of Human Rights, rather than seeing the defendants punished for what they chose to wear.

France is the first country in European to implement a full ban on covering up faces in public.




Big ups to Hind for placing her philosophical and religious beliefs above law.


Freedom of religion is a basic human right.




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[Kayla]

The war on the burkha is part of the same continuum of oppression as the Moslem edict that demands its use.

a muslim well former muslim now a baptist woman told me an interesting argument for the burqa/niqab/tent-like clothing ban

she says that the women who say that they are wearing it voluntarily are mostly lying afraid of their husbands or fathers

by banning such garb, it makes it much more difficult for men to force specific types of clothing on them

interesting how you never told me if you talked about this to any muslim women

[Bill Wiltrack]

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GREAT perspective & post Kayla.

Thank you for pointing this out.


I understand what you are saying.





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[chaz wyman]

The war on the burkha is part of the same continuum of oppression as the Moslem edict that demands its use.

a muslim well former muslim now a baptist woman told me an interesting argument for the burqa/niqab/tent-like clothing ban

she says that the women who say that they are wearing it voluntarily are mostly lying afraid of their husbands or fathers

by banning such garb, it makes it much more difficult for men to force specific types of clothing on them

interesting how you never told me if you talked about this to any muslim women

And what about women who want to wear it?
I agree that is should be illegal to make a woman wear it, but how is that different from preventing a woman from wearing it if she wants to?
The French law is as oppressive as the men who force their women to wear it.

[Kayla]

how would you enforce a law forbidding men to force their wives or daughters to wear burkas or the more mainstream tentlike garments etc

women in that environment will not complain to the police

i suppose the question is just what proportion of women wear such things voluntarily wear them