Perspective...

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Kayla
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Kayla »

chaz wyman wrote:
there is no worse hypocrite than a feminist man
Do you think you are advancing your feminist case with this ridiculous sexist nonsense
do you think this statement is mistaken

as far as i can tell all men who hold feminist views are also cultural relativists which is an extremely sexist view

also guys who hold 'traditional' <--- look i used punctuation <---- views on womens roles are less likely to do the extremely sexist thing of sticking their hands where they dont belong

well this is my experience anyway i live in a smallish town in the american bible belt i understand the rest of the world is rather different in many different ways
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Kayla
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Kayla »

i just thought some more about what i wrote

guys who actually bother expressing in a coherent way their views on feminism whether pro or con are much nicer then ones have have no thoughts on the matter

but it seems that in men feminism somehow coexists with cultural relativism i do not understand that at all
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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chaz wyman
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Re: Perspective...

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
Kayla wrote:so you are saying women can walk around dressed however they want in saudi and anything contrary is a lie
I am saying that some women do not wear the burkha in Saudi Arabia.
DO you have any evidence that there are laws that are actually enforced in this issue?
yes you are correct women have to wear tentlike clothing and cover their hair but exposing their faces is ok unless their husband or father objects

in many islamic countries there are no laws covering clothing that must be worn but if a womans father or husband decides to use violence to force his own views on the subject the police will certainly not intervene

how many women from islamic countries have you actually talked to about this at a guess id say zero
Evidence please - not prejudiced assumptions.

There certainly is some evidence that police like to impose dress codes in Iran but the level of resistance is high.
chaz wyman
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Re: Perspective...

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
there is no worse hypocrite than a feminist man
Do you think you are advancing your feminist case with this ridiculous sexist nonsense
do you think this statement is mistaken

You are making a sexist comment. The statement is ridiculous an unfounded generalisation.


as far as i can tell all men who hold feminist views are also cultural relativists which is an extremely sexist view

Cultural relativism is "extremely sexist". Now I've heard it all.

also guys who hold 'traditional' <--- look i used punctuation <---- views on womens roles are less likely to do the extremely sexist thing of sticking their hands where they dont belong

well this is my experience anyway i live in a smallish town in the american bible belt i understand the rest of the world is rather different in many different ways

NO SHit!!!
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Kayla
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Kayla »

in cultural relativist views cultural practices are moral be definition

this includes treatment of women as subjects of the husband forced marriage female genital mutilation etc

cultural relativism is far more likely to defend than to condemn sexist practices
chaz wyman
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Re: Perspective...

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:in cultural relativist views cultural practices are moral be definition

this includes treatment of women as subjects of the husband forced marriage female genital mutilation etc

cultural relativism is far more likely to defend than to condemn sexist practices
Cultural Relativism is a method of moral objectivity.
It is designed to understand a cultural practice within its own context. It makes NO moral judgements - that is the whole point.
Cultural Relativism is born out of antropology's need to set aside judgement, so as to form an objective analysis of culturally contexted practices.
It is amoral.

Historically anthropologists judged different cultures by Western standards, as you tend to do. CR was established to avoid treating other cultures as stupid, barbarian or primitive.
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Kayla
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Kayla »

newsflash

female genital mutilation is stupid barbarian and primitive

forced marriage is stupid barbarian and primitive

denying women access to birth control is stupid barbarian and primitive

treating women as servants of their husbands is stupid barbarian and primitive

yes an anthropologist no more needs to pass moral judgement on these things than a physicist does on use of nuclear weapons

meaning that morality is not part of anthropology or physics

but if they fail to pass moral judgements on those things they are lousy human beings
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Belgium to ban the burqa soon

2011-05-25 21:40
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France burqa ban passes last hurdle

Students: No burqa, no teaching



Brussels - Belgium will soon become the second country in Europe to ban the burqa in public places, after the parliament approved legislation forbidding full veils, the bill's author said on Wednesday.

The legislation quietly cleared the Senate last week after it was overwhelmingly approved by the lower chamber of deputies last month, when only one Green lawmaker voted against it and two abstained.

The new law will take effect 10 days after it is published in Belgium's official journal, in around one month. France became the first European country to ban the burqa on April 11.

The Belgian legislation, drafted by liberal lawmaker Daniel Bacquelaine, bans all clothing that hides the face.

"It is a law that takes into account a fundamental principle, the equality between men and women,"
Bacquelaine told AFP.

"Moreover, if we want an open society, the visibility of the face is essential. Humanity comes from one's face,"
he said.

Lawmakers first voted for the legislation in April 2010, but it was shelved after the government fell following legislative elections two months later.

Only a few hundred women in Belgium are believed to wear the burqa, a full body veil, or the niqab, which hides the face.

- AFP






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Arising_uk
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Arising_uk »

chaz wyman wrote:There is an attempt by the Taliban warlords - but they are not a legislative authority in Afghanistan. ...
They were.
Can you cite a reference for Saudi Arabia to the affect that they enforce the burkha?

Oh look - no burkha.
My apologies, its apparently not a Law. I was confused by the Saudi niqāb.
chaz wyman
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Re: Perspective...

Post by chaz wyman »

Kayla wrote:newsflash

Yeah FOX NEWS FLASH

female genital mutilation is stupid barbarian and primitive

From your point of view.

forced marriage is stupid barbarian and primitive

From your point of view.

denying women access to birth control is stupid barbarian and primitive

From your point of view.

treating women as servants of their husbands is stupid barbarian and primitive

From your point of view.

yes an anthropologist no more needs to pass moral judgement on these things than a physicist does on use of nuclear weapons

From your point of view.

meaning that morality is not part of anthropology or physics

Anthropology studies moral systems, it does not declare judgement.
Physical is amoral.


but if they fail to pass moral judgements on those things they are lousy human beings

From your point of view.


Have you had underage sex? Have you had sex before marriage? Do you condone abortion or capital punishment?
There are other people who would judge you for those things.
But judging is not understanding. The real challenge to bring enlightenment is to first understand another culture's moral logic.
And to offer alternatives, through dialogue and example.
Sadly the history of cultural contact has robbed the world of much of its diversity by people like missionaries passing judgement on other cultures. In the Victorian period this quashed many so-called primitive cultures that had far more healthy attitudes to sex and gender relationships than was offered by the proselytising priests, who decided that (for example) nakedness was 'shameful'. As a result 100s of pristine cultures have been destroyed.

Right now your sort of attitude will do more harm than good. Calling a woman how chooses to wear a burkha "stupid and primitive", or "barbarian" will not result in them wishing to change their minds or their culture.


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Kayla
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Kayla »

chaz wyman wrote:
female genital mutilation is stupid barbarian and primitive
From your point of view.
why do you think that female genital mutilation is ok
forced marriage is stupid barbarian and primitive
From your point of view.
which obviously disagrees with yours

why do you think its acceptable to force a girl or a woman into marriage

you or at least other readers may notice by now that accepting cultural relativism entails accepting a very lousy deal for girls and women
Have you had sex before marriage?
having sex before marriage does nothing inherently harmful

this cannot be said for cutting off a girls clitoris with a rusty dirty knife

or forcing a girl to marry against her will
And to offer alternatives, through dialogue and example.
why offer alternatives if what they are doing is just as good as anything else anyone else is doing
Sadly the history of cultural contact has robbed the world of much of its diversity by people like missionaries passing judgement on other cultures.
the missionaries were only behaving based on their own cultures logic which you obviously do not understand

what is your problem with missionaries

if you want to argue that the european colonizers methods were counter productive and that they were a bunch of hypocrites that generally did more harm than good that seems like a very reasonable argument but that is not the argument you are making
Calling a woman how chooses to wear a burkha "stupid and primitive", or "barbarian" will not result in them wishing to change their minds or their culture.
[/quote]

when did i do that

a man forcing a woman to wear a burka is stupid and primitive

if a woman wants to wear a burka or a microskirt with buttfloss underwear or whatever that should be her right

you should visit the bible belt sometimes

when it comes to men forcing girls and women to live in a certain way we are ahead of the taliban but by not as much as many people think

we do not need men self righteously going on about how preventing access to sex education and birth control is only wrong from our perspective and how we should focus on the logic of the culture rather than judging it

its easy for you to say you are a man
artisticsolution
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Re: Perspective...

Post by artisticsolution »

Kayla wrote:
why do you think that female genital mutilation is ok
I think it's ok too. (Not that Chaz thinks it's ok...I don't know about him). I think it is ok when a woman desires to have this done to herself. I just have a problem with other people wanting to do this TO a woman, rather than her choosing the option for herself. As far as peer pressure I don't buy into it if it is an adult. If a person makes a decision as a mentally capable adult then they should be prepared for the consequences like any other adult. I am tired of women playing the victim for the choices they make in life.

Either we are capable of making our own decision or we are not. If we are then we should have the option of deciding we want genital mutilation.

Now if Chaz meant that society should force women to have genital mutilation (which I don't think is what he is saying) then I would say that is wrong on the grounds that no person should have a say over what another person does with their body. This is the same reason I am against abortion. And while I believe that abortion may be ending a life (not sure where the cut off is as to when life begins) I don't believe the fetus's life takes precedence over the woman's body/ life in the matter of the host body's life decisions.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Perspective...

Post by Arising_uk »

Kayla wrote:female genital mutilation is stupid barbarian and primitive ...
Just checking Kayla but you do know that its the women who pretty much keep this practice alive?
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