Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Greta
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:00 am

Chill out. You are just wrong, that's all. I read it but it's not logical.

The problem for you is most societies are way past your preferred regression, operating on the merit principle as opposed to the penis principle. It's lunacy to judge applicants for the vast majority of roles in society based on gender.

Where people compete for roles, may the the best (or the best connected) individual win. Old stereotypes will be consigned to the dustbin of history - just simple, formative organisational behaviour that some societies will utterly transcend in the future - and they will be all the more powerful for it.

In the future there will increasingly be two strategies - the insectile breed-fast-and-die-young approach and the breed-few-but-live-long approach. Humans have been most successful with the latter, hence our dominance. Any claimed victory by patriarchal fast-breeding societies will prove to be a pyrrhic one because millions will be claimed early - horribly and painfully. These patriarchal societies suffer from chronic immaturity in the populace resulting in poor organisation and a lack of interest in caring for the people.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:18 am

3Sum wrote:
Usual disabling binary thinking which places all men as grunts are all women and child bearers.
I never said that and everything else that follows in your post is based on this strawman. Yes, it is a matter of degree and not absolutes, I never claimed otherwise. If you read my thread you would know this, quoting my OP:
this is a matter of which sex is GENERALLY better suited for something, not that EVERY member of a sex must be superior in that aspect to every member of the opposite sex.
But you keep building strawmen and knocking them down. You fit right in with others here who can't read and those who come here only to insult and nothing else.
Well duh. "GENERALLY" is basically saying exactly what I am accusing you of.
There is nothing here "to deal with", you simply need to take people at their face value, regardless of gender.
REGARDLESS of gender. If you see them as inhabiting a gender then you have already made the first step to prejudice.
Generalisation is not useful or valid.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:20 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:DUH!
Usual disabling binary thinking which places all men as grunts are all women and child bearers.

Fact is that gender is a spectrum; and not even a linear one at that.

Humans come in many shapes and sizes. Some boys are born effeminate and some girls are born masculine. But it does not just stop there. XYY men exist, as well as XXY. These present a range of definitive problems. There are others whose gender confuses attempts to generalise into the binary opposition that society would demand. Biologically gender orientation is not only determined by differing amounts of hormones in each of us, but in our own body's ability to react to those hormones.
Far from being determined simply by XY, or XX chromosomes, gender is also determined by a range of genes independent of theses particular hormones.
And I've not even started on historical, cultural, social and familial attitudes which base expectations and anticipations on roles expected of us as we enter puberty.

GRETA nailed this thread.
Treat people as they want to be treated and accept their choices. There is NOTHING "to deal with". Like it or lump it- it's no one's business but their own, the choices people want to make.
'Nailed it' by saying she's over the whole sex thing? Try expecting hormonal teenagers to think that way. And the vast majority of people are average, run-of-the-mill male or female. No amount of PC claptrap is going to change that.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:26 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:DUH!
Usual disabling binary thinking which places all men as grunts are all women and child bearers.

Fact is that gender is a spectrum; and not even a linear one at that.

Humans come in many shapes and sizes. Some boys are born effeminate and some girls are born masculine. But it does not just stop there. XYY men exist, as well as XXY. These present a range of definitive problems. There are others whose gender confuses attempts to generalise into the binary opposition that society would demand. Biologically gender orientation is not only determined by differing amounts of hormones in each of us, but in our own body's ability to react to those hormones.
Far from being determined simply by XY, or XX chromosomes, gender is also determined by a range of genes independent of theses particular hormones.
And I've not even started on historical, cultural, social and familial attitudes which base expectations and anticipations on roles expected of us as we enter puberty.

GRETA nailed this thread.
Treat people as they want to be treated and accept their choices. There is NOTHING "to deal with". Like it or lump it- it's no one's business but their own, the choices people want to make.
'Nailed it' by saying she's over the whole sex thing? Try expecting hormonal teenagers to think that way. And the vast majority of people are average, run-of-the-mill male or female. No amount of PC claptrap is going to change that.
Neither Greta nor I are trying to deny that people can be at the mercy of their hormones. The fact is that each of us react to hormones differently and have different amounts and types of hormones, and at different times in life.

Rather than invent "generalising" schemes by which we can "Deal With Gender", or forge "another way of looking at gender relations", we would do better to treat people as themselves, and not conforming to a set of of prejudices like "HORMONAL TEENAGERSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
It's not CLAPTRAP. It's not PC.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:31 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:DUH!
Usual disabling binary thinking which places all men as grunts are all women and child bearers.

Fact is that gender is a spectrum; and not even a linear one at that.

Humans come in many shapes and sizes. Some boys are born effeminate and some girls are born masculine. But it does not just stop there. XYY men exist, as well as XXY. These present a range of definitive problems. There are others whose gender confuses attempts to generalise into the binary opposition that society would demand. Biologically gender orientation is not only determined by differing amounts of hormones in each of us, but in our own body's ability to react to those hormones.
Far from being determined simply by XY, or XX chromosomes, gender is also determined by a range of genes independent of theses particular hormones.
And I've not even started on historical, cultural, social and familial attitudes which base expectations and anticipations on roles expected of us as we enter puberty.

GRETA nailed this thread.
Treat people as they want to be treated and accept their choices. There is NOTHING "to deal with". Like it or lump it- it's no one's business but their own, the choices people want to make.
'Nailed it' by saying she's over the whole sex thing? Try expecting hormonal teenagers to think that way. And the vast majority of people are average, run-of-the-mill male or female. No amount of PC claptrap is going to change that.
Neither Greta nor I are trying to deny that people can be at the mercy of their hormones. The fact is that each of us react to hormones differently and have different amounts and types of hormones, and at different times in life.

Rather than invent "generalising" schemes by which we can "Deal With Gender", or forge "another way of looking at gender relations", we would do better to treat people as themselves, and not conforming to a set of of prejudices like "HORMONAL TEENAGERSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
It's not CLAPTRAP. It's not PC.
Oh right. And I'm sure you never see gender in your everyday life. After all, gender doesn't exist. We are all just genderless brains inside a weird-looking fleshy exterior. I suppose you read Playboy just for the articles too.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:49 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: 'Nailed it' by saying she's over the whole sex thing? Try expecting hormonal teenagers to think that way. And the vast majority of people are average, run-of-the-mill male or female. No amount of PC claptrap is going to change that.
Neither Greta nor I are trying to deny that people can be at the mercy of their hormones. The fact is that each of us react to hormones differently and have different amounts and types of hormones, and at different times in life.

Rather than invent "generalising" schemes by which we can "Deal With Gender", or forge "another way of looking at gender relations", we would do better to treat people as themselves, and not conforming to a set of of prejudices like "HORMONAL TEENAGERSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!".
It's not CLAPTRAP. It's not PC.
Oh right. And I'm sure you never see gender in your everyday life. After all, gender doesn't exist. We are all just genderless brains inside a weird-looking fleshy exterior. I suppose you read Playboy just for the articles too.
You are being an horse's arse.
I take people as they are. I see men and women at different times of their life, "Gender" is an abstraction.

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Greta
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:13 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Neither Greta nor I are trying to deny that people can be at the mercy of their hormones. The fact is that each of us react to hormones differently and have different amounts and types of hormones, and at different times in life.
Thanks Hobbes. That covers it for me.

I don't see why one can't see out their older age in their own way without being accused of being PC. It's really simple. My track record tells me that I'm either not much chop with relationships or I didn't meet the right people. Now I'm getting older and decided the game isn't worth the aggravation. Veg, if you have never given up the game you won't know how it renders gender irrelevant for you. Crudely, if you entertain zero chance of ever fucking with people - if you don't harbour that agenda - then people's gender doesn't matter.

You call it PC because you can't believe that I'm being sincere - that I'm just saying things for effect. Ta much for that. You were wrong, though. I was simply saying it how things are for me these days. I posited it as a possible attitude to take towards the whole gender situation. You don't need to be single either. A committed married couple will tend to have sexless interactions with other people too.

Whatever, gender stereotyping is as superficial as any other stereotyping - fine for an initial scratch assessment when there's no chance to explore further, but when used beyond that it tends to just cause harm. Is trying to avoid harm PC these days? Wet? Does it make a SJW? Is might it be that having hostile, resentful attitudes is in vogue ATM so any vague attempt at decency is mistrusted?

3Sum
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by 3Sum » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:19 pm

So is it because my OP is not logical that you could not point out a single flaw in it, be it logical or factual?

If you actually read my post you would not be throwing around such idiotic and plainly false accusations as me being against meritocracy.

You're way too delusional to argue with. The only thing that might change your mind would be forcing you to directly face the consequences of your beliefs, which would be you getting gangraped and/or killed by Moustafa and Mohammed because you are too inferior to defeat them in combat. But since you are protected from your own degenerate idiocy, I guess we have nothing to say to each other anymore.

Men would have to be extremely mentally emasculated to accept responsibility for protecting those they have no authority over. Let's see how successfully you can exploit males and convince them to risk their lives for other people's (yours) benefit. Will there be enough of such mangina white knight males? Will they be of sufficient quality? What do you think? I doubt it.

Some are already turning away from the corrupt system (MGTOW), and they are growing in number.

But you go ahead and think whatever you want to think. Surely separating authority from responsibility and trying to enforce upon men responsibility for a system they have no authority over cannot backfire in any way... right? Bye.

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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by 3Sum » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:22 pm

As for you Hobbes, the general differences between men and women are too important to be disregarded. I explain all that in my post, how even if you make men and women equal under the law, depending on what you make them equal in, you will benefit either men or women.

I have to say, on one hand I am dissatisfied with the quality of criticism I received here, on the other hand I am very satisfied and almost flattered that nobody could poke any proper holes in my OP.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:32 pm

3Sum wrote:So is it because my OP is not logical that you could not point out a single flaw in it, be it logical or factual?
Nothing to do with logic at all, just irrelevance.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:38 pm

3Sum wrote:As for you Hobbes, the general differences between men and women are too important to be disregarded. I explain all that in my post, how even if you make men and women equal under the law, depending on what you make them equal in, you will benefit either men or women.

I have to say, on one hand I am dissatisfied with the quality of criticism I received here, on the other hand I am very satisfied and almost flattered that nobody could poke any proper holes in my OP.
People like to screw, I get that.
It's pointless trying to defend your argument by shifting the goal posts and crying strawman.
If you wanted to start a post about "Sexual relations- and how to deal with them", at least be honest about it.

But the fact remains is that the things that are important about a person, you wanting or not wanting to have sex with them comes way down the list of importance.
As a man having just had his 57th birthday, weighing up every woman I meet as a potential fuck is becoming a thing of the past thankfully. It was just bloody boring. Not the actual sex, but the predictable checking them out, as if that made any real impact on the majority of the women I have had the pleasure to have known in my life.
And all the best ones, have not even been a candidate for sex in any event, and the person at the top of that list was my grandmother.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:30 pm

Greta wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Neither Greta nor I are trying to deny that people can be at the mercy of their hormones. The fact is that each of us react to hormones differently and have different amounts and types of hormones, and at different times in life.
Thanks Hobbes. That covers it for me.

I don't see why one can't see out their older age in their own way without being accused of being PC. It's really simple. My track record tells me that I'm either not much chop with relationships or I didn't meet the right people. Now I'm getting older and decided the game isn't worth the aggravation. Veg, if you have never given up the game you won't know how it renders gender irrelevant for you. Crudely, if you entertain zero chance of ever fucking with people - if you don't harbour that agenda - then people's gender doesn't matter.

You call it PC because you can't believe that I'm being sincere - that I'm just saying things for effect. Ta much for that. You were wrong, though. I was simply saying it how things are for me these days. I posited it as a possible attitude to take towards the whole gender situation. You don't need to be single either. A committed married couple will tend to have sexless interactions with other people too.

Whatever, gender stereotyping is as superficial as any other stereotyping - fine for an initial scratch assessment when there's no chance to explore further, but when used beyond that it tends to just cause harm. Is trying to avoid harm PC these days? Wet? Does it make a SJW? Is might it be that having hostile, resentful attitudes is in vogue ATM so any vague attempt at decency is mistrusted?
I don't think you are PC, that would be Hobbes, but men and women are still men and women, even when sexual desire is but a distant memory, so I don't really see the connection. I have no problem with whatever gender individuals want to call themselves, I just resent being told what to think by politically motivated social engineers, and they certainly have no business infiltrating the school system. If they genuinely want to reduce bullying then they would be better occupied campaigning against the bullshit American (of course) 'no blame policy' which actually means 'blame the victim'.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3Sum
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by 3Sum » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:36 pm

Is there a point to that last post of yours, Hobbs? Except that you don't want to have sex with your grandmother?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:02 pm

3Sum wrote:Is there a point to that last post of yours, Hobbs? Except that you don't want to have sex with your grandmother?
I've made my point, you are just too dull to see it.

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Greta
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Re: Gender relations - another way of looking at them

Post by Greta » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't think you are PC, that would be Hobbes, but men and women are still men and women, even when sexual desire is but a distant memory, so I don't really see the connection. I have no problem with whatever gender individuals want to call themselves, I just resent being told what to think by politically motivated social engineers, and they certainly have no business infiltrating the school system. If they genuinely want to reduce bullying then they would be better occupied campaigning against the bullshit American (of course) 'no blame policy' which actually means 'blame the victim'.
Men and women are not necessarily "men and women". There's plenty of those who find their gender box so restrictive and absurd that to treat them like a stereotype of their gender would piss them off mightily, eg. expecting intelligent women and men to be brood sows and pack horses respectively.

If you resent being told what to think then you must spend your life in a constant state of barely controlled apoplexy because, last time I looked, almost everyone is telling us what to think almost all of the time. This is the human condition in a large society - swimming in an ocean of opinions.

We agree on bullying and, again, gender can be pushed aside to a fair extent. Separating victims for their protection is foolish and morally wrong. It's the bullies who should be separated. Identify bullies and put them into counselling and don't let them off until they find things more fulfilling than ruining others' lives.

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