Feminist Fantasy

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:30 pm

Kayla wrote:
you should head for rural baptist churches in America's heartland - especially the Southern part of the heartland

visit them, listen to their sermons

you will find out that America's involvement in the Middle East is doing God's work. in this view, drone operators blowing away afghani and pakistani villagers are doing specifically christian work.
Irrelevant.

If I break into your bank account and empty it, I'll need to use your name to get the job done. It doesn't mean I had any right to use your name in the first place.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:Irrelevant.

If I break into your bank account and empty it, I'll need to use your name to get the job done. It doesn't mean I had any right to use your name in the first place.
Who is to judge, you?

Dalek Prime
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Kayla wrote:
you should head for rural baptist churches in America's heartland - especially the Southern part of the heartland

visit them, listen to their sermons

you will find out that America's involvement in the Middle East is doing God's work. in this view, drone operators blowing away afghani and pakistani villagers are doing specifically christian work.
Irrelevant.

If I break into your bank account and empty it, I'll need to use your name to get the job done. It doesn't mean I had any right to use your name in the first place.
Valid point, IC, when speaking of Arising or Kayla. But 'God' is a public figure, and fair game for usage.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:21 pm

Dalek Prime wrote: Valid point, IC, when speaking of Arising or Kayla. But 'God' is a public figure, and fair game for usage.
Non sequitur. If God were not real, the use of His Name would be inauthentic for that reason. If God is real, then obviously one does not get Divine blessing if one steals His Name and acts contrary to His explicit commands.

Either way the "public figure" idea doesn't change the difference between claiming and actually being legitimate in one's use of a name.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: Valid point, IC, when speaking of Arising or Kayla. But 'God' is a public figure, and fair game for usage.
Non sequitur. If God were not real, the use of His Name would be inauthentic for that reason. If God is real, then obviously one does not get Divine blessing if one steals His Name and acts contrary to His explicit commands.

Either way the "public figure" idea doesn't change the difference between claiming and actually being legitimate in one's use of a name.
I see what you mean, but I'm starting to feel there should be licensing fees. Who would we pay that to, I wonder? c/o Canterbury? Rome? Mecca? Jerusalem? Utah?

thedoc
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by thedoc » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:26 am

Dalek Prime wrote: I see what you mean, but I'm starting to feel there should be licensing fees. Who would we pay that to, I wonder? c/o Canterbury? Rome? Mecca? Jerusalem? Utah?


Matthew 22:20-21 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Cæsar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:47 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: Valid point, IC, when speaking of Arising or Kayla. But 'God' is a public figure, and fair game for usage.
Non sequitur. If God were not real, the use of His Name would be inauthentic for that reason. If God is real, then obviously one does not get Divine blessing if one steals His Name and acts contrary to His explicit commands.

Either way the "public figure" idea doesn't change the difference between claiming and actually being legitimate in one's use of a name.
This is based on a false assumption that you can know what you are talking about.
Yet by your own admission you on the one hand claim that god is unknowable and on the other you tend to keep trying to tell us what's on his mind all the time.
You are one sick puppy.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:50 pm

Dalek Prime wrote: I see what you mean, but I'm starting to feel there should be licensing fees. Who would we pay that to, I wonder? c/o Canterbury? Rome? Mecca? Jerusalem? Utah?
How about none of the above? :wink: Or, to quote the relevant copyright notice...

"...the Almighty does not dwell in houses made with hands...."

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Arising_uk
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:59 am

Immanuel Can wrote:How about none of the above? :wink: Or, to quote the relevant copyright notice...

"...the Almighty does not dwell in houses made with hands...."
Which pretty much means you cannot judge others as non-christian by your lights as in their hearts they may well be. Which means we can say they are christians by their acts.

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Kayla
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Kayla » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:27 pm

Nick_A wrote:arising wrote:
No they don't. You've already been pointed towards feminist sites who oppose such behavior.
Have you read this one?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05 ... on-sharia/
breibart is not a feminist web site

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Kayla
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Kayla » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Kayla wrote:
you should head for rural baptist churches in America's heartland - especially the Southern part of the heartland

visit them, listen to their sermons

you will find out that America's involvement in the Middle East is doing God's work. in this view, drone operators blowing away afghani and pakistani villagers are doing specifically christian work.
Irrelevant.

If I break into your bank account and empty it, I'll need to use your name to get the job done. It doesn't mean I had any right to use your name in the first place.
have no idea what you are trying to say here

that millions of americans regard US involved in middle east as god's work is undeniable - do you dispute that

simply knowing that someone labels themselves a muslim or a christian does not tell me anything about their willingness to use violence to promote religious goals - and the only way we can judge a doctrine is by its actions - it is absurd to say "when christians commit violence they do so against the teachers of christianity, but when muslims commit violence its because their doctrine requiers it" (this is consistent both with American pragmatist philosophy, and words of christ to the effect of 'by their fruits you will know htem'.)

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:19 pm

Kayla wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote: Irrelevant.

If I break into your bank account and empty it, I'll need to use your name to get the job done. It doesn't mean I had any right to use your name in the first place.
have no idea what you are trying to say here
Wow. It took you long enough to ask. :D
that millions of americans regard US involved in middle east as god's work is undeniable - do you dispute that
I would doubt your hyperbolical "millions," and suggest that you adopt a more skeptical view of the media on that point. But numbers wouldn't really matter, now would they?

Much more importantly, the fact that "millions" believe anything does not necessarily dignify that belief: it has to be a true reflection of what the ideology the claim tells them to believe. If they are disobeying the ideology, then they are not representing it at all.

And that's the point of the banking analogy. I can clean out your bank account "in your name." But you will be mad as anything if I do, because I really don't have any right to use your name that way, do I? Only if I am genuinely acting on your behalf -- that is, if you have given me a letter of authority and asked me to bring you the contents of your bank account -- do I legitimately use your name.

You can't blame an ideology for what people who disregard and disobey it do. You can blame it only for what they do when they are actually obeying it. That's just fair.
simply knowing that someone labels themselves a muslim or a christian does not tell me anything about their willingness to use violence to promote religious goals

Then it's because you have no knowledge of their ideology. If the "goals," as you say, are "religious," then they must reflect the precepts of that religion, no? If they do not, there's no sense in which you can call the perpetrator of the violence "Muslim" or "Christian." What you would have to say is the they were a violent person, whose religion actually played no part in their violent actions. For if their religion was all the while forbidding them to do violence, how can you justify any claim that they acted "religiously"?

So you have to know what the religion instructs them to do before you can rightly judge the role it may or may not have had in the choices they made. And wanting to know the answer, I have read the Bible and the Koran, and have had discussions and debates with proponents of both sides. Have you?
- and the only way we can judge a doctrine is by its actions -
BUT they have to be the actions "of the doctrine," meaning that the doctrine in question has to approve or conduce to them, or they are not the "actions of the doctrine" at all. Common sense, that.
it is absurd to say "when christians commit violence they do so against the teachers of christianity, but when muslims commit violence its because their doctrine requiers it"
Read the books, then tell me that. You're simply wrong. But you'll never know if you don't look. That's all I can tell you about that.

Christ did indeed say, "by their fruits you will know them." Right on. But also note in the context that he was talking about how to tell the difference between those who say they love God and those that really do. So He was inviting you to do exactly what I'm inviting you to do; judge the adherents of the religion by what they do. In fact, take a look at the whole passage to which you alluded so briefly, Matthew 7:

“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

So you're quite right: Christ Himself says you can know who is a real "Christian" and who is not BY WHAT THEY DO. He invites you to do that. He welcomes the test. As the Bible says elsewhere, "if they do not conform to this word, it is because they have no dawn" (Isaiah 8:20). Lovely metaphor, that. Anyway, it means that whether in the OT or the New, you are most heartily welcome to judge Christians as Christians by what they do. 8)

And please, please...do judge Islam by what it does. Please do. :shock:

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Kayla
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Kayla » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:06 am

odd how islam calls for violence and christianity does not and yet professed followers of both have a similar track record for violence, overall

if i understand correct you are using 'no true scotsman' fallacy to dispute that

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Kayla
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Kayla » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:11 am

Immanuel Can wrote: I would doubt your hyperbolical "millions," and suggest that you adopt a more skeptical view of the media on that point.
i live in deep rural american south - and i grew up in a sort of semi-rural area - still in american south. i know this part of the world quite well

i know that a lot of people around here regard the war in iraq / afghanistan /etc as america doing god's work

what i see around me is consistent with media claims
So you have to know what the religion instructs them to do before you can rightly judge the role it may or may not have had in the choices they made. And wanting to know the answer, I have read the Bible and the Koran, and have had discussions and debates with proponents of both sides. Have you?
in fact i have

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Feminist Fantasy

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:27 am

Kayla wrote:odd how islam calls for violence and christianity does not and yet professed followers of both have a similar track record for violence, overall

if i understand correct you are using 'no true scotsman' fallacy to dispute that
Then you do not understand at all. I am using no fallacy, least of all that one. I'm making a very common-sense point, really.

I am simply saying what Christ Himself said. You know if someone is what they say they are, by what they do. And you said the very same thing in your earlier message.

I just also added that you must judge an ideology by those whose actions coordinate with what it says, not with those who have no more than a name but no actions befitting their claim.

Read the books. Then you'll know.

That should be simple and clear enough, I would think.

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