Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:55 am

Skip wrote:Ah, but is it sexist to say this? I think so, but it doesn't rate high on the offense scale.
Rest easy, skip. I was a feminist even before it was fashionable for a bloke to describe himself as such so I have nothing to fear from any tribunal seeking to question my ideological purity. My observation regarding the duplicitous nature of sexual behaviour was not restricted solely to the human species. As a biologist in good standing I have observed this phenomenon to be widespread throughout the vertebrate kingdom, both mammalian and avian. Males are vain and females can outsmart them because of this.

Skip
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Skip » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:46 am

....Plus, males are big, so females need to be clever....

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:29 am

Skip wrote:....Plus, males are big, so females need to be clever....
Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?
No. It is stupid to say women are a mystery.

Re 'females need to be clever'. Apparently they also need to keep men 'at arm's length'. After the Cologne New Year's attacks on women:
The Mayor of Cologne says women should adopt a “code of conduct” to prevent future attacks following trouble on New Year's eve when women in the city centre were subjected to sexual assaults by hundreds of men.

The proposed code of conduct includes staying an arm's length away from strangers, remaining within your own group, and asking bystanders for intervene or to help as a witness.

Henriette Reker attended an emergency meeting with police and other officials on Tuesday to discuss how best to deal with the crimes that occurred when 1,000 men, “of Arab or North African appearance”, took over the area around the main station.
However, she also said that visitors from “other cultures” should also be educated on acceptable conduct.
We need to prevent confusion about what constitutes happy behaviour and what is utterly separate from openness, especially in sexual behaviour," she said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... aults.html
So,it's a cultural thing. And men need to be 'educated on acceptable conduct'. Well, so do women - they should know that they are not 'at fault' for any sexual, physical or mental abuse. Their experiences should be taken seriously and not dismissed by policemen, or those they turn to for help.

There is no 'confusion' here. Some men may be sexist but they are not stupid; they know fine well when they are taking advantage of a woman's vulnerability. There is no mystery. The power thing works both ways. But physically - females have no chance. Being clever doesn't cut it.
There are clever females held captive all over the world. Sexism writ barbaric.

Walker
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Walker » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:47 pm

What women really think when they are on candid camera.

The Art of No Theory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l8mYfrxpTw

artisticsolution
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by artisticsolution » Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:50 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
Skip wrote:....Plus, males are big, so females need to be clever....
Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?
No. It is stupid to say women are a mystery.

Re 'females need to be clever'. Apparently they also need to keep men 'at arm's length'. After the Cologne New Year's attacks on women:
The Mayor of Cologne says women should adopt a “code of conduct” to prevent future attacks following trouble on New Year's eve when women in the city centre were subjected to sexual assaults by hundreds of men.

The proposed code of conduct includes staying an arm's length away from strangers, remaining within your own group, and asking bystanders for intervene or to help as a witness.

Henriette Reker attended an emergency meeting with police and other officials on Tuesday to discuss how best to deal with the crimes that occurred when 1,000 men, “of Arab or North African appearance”, took over the area around the main station.
However, she also said that visitors from “other cultures” should also be educated on acceptable conduct.
We need to prevent confusion about what constitutes happy behaviour and what is utterly separate from openness, especially in sexual behaviour," she said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... aults.html
So,it's a cultural thing. And men need to be 'educated on acceptable conduct'. Well, so do women - they should know that they are not 'at fault' for any sexual, physical or mental abuse. Their experiences should be taken seriously and not dismissed by policemen, or those they turn to for help.

There is no 'confusion' here. Some men may be sexist but they are not stupid; they know fine well when they are taking advantage of a woman's vulnerability. There is no mystery. The power thing works both ways. But physically - females have no chance. Being clever doesn't cut it.
There are clever females held captive all over the world. Sexism writ barbaric.
It's one thing to be sexist and say , "women are a mystery." It's another thing to commit a crime against a woman just because you are able.

I think sexist is too kind a word for those who commit heinous crimes against humanity. There is no excuse for this type of behavior and calling it a sexist crime sounds as if they are just doing 'what men are wont to do.'

And all this talk going on these days about men being 'true' to their animal nature makes it sound romantic and gives them excuses to behave uncivilized...when we all know...when it comes to being civilized and doing things like organizing work ethics or finances, even the worst barbarian seem to understand how to rationally organize their thoughts into civilized action, in day to day dealing. I am sure, they would not rape the bank executive when trying to get a loan. They know how to behave in public....they just don't when no one is looking. It might be high time women carry an equalizer in order to remind them. A stun gun? mace? Sure...they could still over power but at least it would be painful.

Personally, I do dangerous things when I am in those types of situations cause I'm stupid and I don't feel pain when I am scared. I would probably grab and twist and twist until they killed me or rammed my fist down their throat and grab whatever I could and pull it out. I've been in situations before where I lose all reason and feel no pain...and I have always won the fight no matter how big the guy was. Because they would have to kill me to get me to stop...and I guess no one ever felt like killing me.

I think this new breed wouldn't think twice about killing a woman whether she fought or not...I just hope it would be painful for them in the process.

I doubt anything will stop this behavior for good though.

Walker
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Walker » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:22 pm

Awareness is a greater ally than even a cattle prod.

It’s wise to constantly evaluate surrounding people. What exactly is that person doing. White zone, yellow zone, red zone.

That way you determine the battle, and The Last Stand.

Can you see the hands, and are the hands holding anything. Don’t worry about the face. Watch the hands. Show me your hands.

Getting ready for a night on the town.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kelM00j4i24

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:27 pm

AS reply to MB
MB previously wrote:
Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?
No. It is stupid to say women are a mystery.

Re 'females need to be clever'. Apparently they also need to keep men 'at arm's length'. After the Cologne New Year's attacks on women:
The Mayor of Cologne says women should adopt a “code of conduct” to prevent future attacks following trouble on New Year's eve when women in the city centre were subjected to sexual assaults by hundreds of men.

The proposed code of conduct includes staying an arm's length away from strangers, remaining within your own group, and asking bystanders for intervene or to help as a witness.

Henriette Reker attended an emergency meeting with police and other officials on Tuesday to discuss how best to deal with the crimes that occurred when 1,000 men, “of Arab or North African appearance”, took over the area around the main station.
However, she also said that visitors from “other cultures” should also be educated on acceptable conduct.
We need to prevent confusion about what constitutes happy behaviour and what is utterly separate from openness, especially in sexual behaviour," she said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... aults.html

So,it's a cultural thing. And men need to be 'educated on acceptable conduct'. Well, so do women - they should know that they are not 'at fault' for any sexual, physical or mental abuse. Their experiences should be taken seriously and not dismissed by policemen, or those they turn to for help.

There is no 'confusion' here. Some men may be sexist but they are not stupid; they know fine well when they are taking advantage of a woman's vulnerability. There is no mystery. The power thing works both ways. But physically - females have no chance. Being clever doesn't cut it.
There are clever females held captive all over the world. Sexism writ barbaric.
AS wrote:

It's one thing to be sexist and say , "women are a mystery." It's another thing to commit a crime against a woman just because you are able.

I think sexist is too kind a word for those who commit heinous crimes against humanity. There is no excuse for this type of behavior and calling it a sexist crime sounds as if they are just doing 'what men are wont to do.'

And all this talk going on these days about men being 'true' to their animal nature makes it sound romantic and gives them excuses to behave uncivilized...when we all know...when it comes to being civilized and doing things like organizing work ethics or finances, even the worst barbarian seem to understand how to rationally organize their thoughts into civilized action, in day to day dealing. I am sure, they would not rape the bank executive when trying to get a loan. They know how to behave in public....they just don't when no one is looking. It might be high time women carry an equalizer in order to remind them. A stun gun? mace? Sure...they could still over power but at least it would be painful.

Personally, I do dangerous things when I am in those types of situations cause I'm stupid and I don't feel pain when I am scared. I would probably grab and twist and twist until they killed me or rammed my fist down their throat and grab whatever I could and pull it out. I've been in situations before where I lose all reason and feel no pain...and I have always won the fight no matter how big the guy was. Because they would have to kill me to get me to stop...and I guess no one ever felt like killing me.

I think this new breed wouldn't think twice about killing a woman whether she fought or not...I just hope it would be painful for them in the process.

I doubt anything will stop this behavior for good though.
I agree that not all crimes ( sexual) against women have a sexist motive. Also, saying 'women are a mystery' is a minor scenario ( even if you want to argue that it is sexist). As for ' those who commit heinous crimes against humanity' - again a different category and includes war crimes where rape is used as weapon.

'Sexism' like 'Racism' comes in different shapes and sizes Just a few examples:
The casual: mild 'jokes' and wolf whistles - which can be seen as acceptable or unacceptable, depending on the woman involved. As a compliment or degrading.
The discriminatory: compulsory military service for men where only males should be forced into combat.
The violent: where females are victims of religious or cultural sexism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender. Sexism can affect any gender, but it is particularly documented as affecting women and girls.[1] It has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles,[2][3] and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another.[4] Extreme sexism may foster sexual harassment, rape, and other forms of sexual violence.[5]


Re the Cologne attacks. It would appear that even the police couldn't handle the situation.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/j ... -years-eve

The police report, leaked to the German tabloid Bild, described how officers were initially overwhelmed by the events outside the city’s train station on New Year’s Eve, after which more than 100 women filed criminal complaints of sexual assault and robbery, including two accounts of rape.

It said women were forced to “run a gauntlet … beyond description” to reach or leave the station.

“The officers on the ground couldn’t gain control of all of the events, attacks and crimes – there were simply too many at the same time for that to be possible,” a high-ranking officer wrote, describing the scene police arrived to. “On the square outside were several thousand mostly male people of a migrant background who were firing all kinds of fireworks and throwing bottles into the crowd at random


“Even the appearance of police officers on the scene … didn’t hold the masses back from their actions.” The report added that police who tried to clear the square faced a barrage of fireworks and bottles.

The incidents in and around the square in front of the main train station next to the city’s gothic cathedral have led to accusations of a police and media coverup to avoid anti-foreigner sentiment following Merkel’s open-door policy towards refugees and migrants, which has led to more than a million people arriving in the past 12 months.
I don't know what you mean about a 'new breed'. Of men? No, I don't think so, but perhaps it is a new social phenomenon - the organisation of groups of men, with backward cultural, or religious, beliefs, thinking they can get away with this marauding behaviour. I would argue that strong 'sexism' plays a major part; women being seen as inferior. This kind of criminal behaviour with its sexist assumptions can be challenged and changed. Educating people to have respect for others. Legal action. Protest.
Both males and females have to keep on fighting the good fight...even if there will always be some kind of sexual violence in the world.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:19 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:Both males and females have to keep on fighting the good fight...even if there will always be some kind of sexual violence in the world.
Sadly I fear that this is probably a true statement, MB, and I agree that ultimately only education can resolve this problem. As a biologist I emphatically reject the idea that at heart the human male is nothing more than a mindless rutting beast with no control over his hormonal imperatives, just as I emphatically reject the same argument when it is applied to women, whose hormonal influences are both more cyclical and often more readily apparent. Except in very rare cases of a disordered psychopathology both men and women are ALWAYS completely responsible for their own behaviour and to suggest otherwise is both disingenuous and an insult to ourselves.

It strikes me that the outrageous behaviour in Cologne might be an example of a different sort of phenomenon altogether. Football spectator violence, Los Angeles riots, London riots, Rwandan massacres etc are NOT expressions of uncontrolled human instinct. They are expressions of a collective madness which can overcome large groups of individuals when their personal ethical frame of reference is overwhelmed by frenzy. Such phenomena have been much studied by both psychologists and sociologists and to reduce the Cologne event to a simple expression of sexism is in all likelihood completely false.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:54 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:Both males and females have to keep on fighting the good fight...even if there will always be some kind of sexual violence in the world.
Sadly I fear that this is probably a true statement, MB, and I agree that ultimately only education can resolve this problem. As a biologist I emphatically reject the idea that at heart the human male is nothing more than a mindless rutting beast with no control over his hormonal imperatives, just as I emphatically reject the same argument when it is applied to women, whose hormonal influences are both more cyclical and often more readily apparent. Except in very rare cases of a disordered psychopathology both men and women are ALWAYS completely responsible for their own behaviour and to suggest otherwise is both disingenuous and an insult to ourselves.

It strikes me that the outrageous behaviour in Cologne might be an example of a different sort of phenomenon altogether. Football spectator violence, Los Angeles riots, London riots, Rwandan massacres etc are NOT expressions of uncontrolled human instinct. They are expressions of a collective madness which can overcome large groups of individuals when their personal ethical frame of reference is overwhelmed by frenzy. Such phenomena have been much studied by both psychologists and sociologists and to reduce the Cologne event to a simple expression of sexism is in all likelihood completely false.
The Cologne mass sex attacks were committed together with other criminal behaviour, including theft. So, I agree, it was not a 'simple expression of sexism' - it was much more than that.
However, it needs to be pointed out that the cultural sexist attitudes towards women factored in to the abuse which took place here. To neglect this aspect, would be to be dismissive of the women's experience which would then lead to inaction against a real threat.

This attack was perpetrated by gangs of men who kept returning even after the area was evacuated.
It has been described as a new dimension of crime. To me, it is a form of terrorism.
So much for security. Did the police turn a blind eye...it deserves more investigation.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:32 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:To neglect this aspect, would be to be dismissive of the women's experience which would then lead to inaction against a real threat.
I hope you didn't misconstrue my meaning by inferring that I was trying to somehow downplay the seriousness of this event because this was far from my intention. I merely suggest that the causal dynamics which trigger such behaviour are fiendishly difficult to unravel and that there is a real risk that a knee-jerk response driven by simplistic assumptions will probably do more harm than good. Obviously there's going to be a harsh populist backlash against all migrant and refugee groups by those who find comfort in such simplistic assumptions and the authorities will need to stand firm as a bulwark against such retaliation. Germany is a sophisticated modern nation governed under principles of the rule of law and it is events such as this which put those principles to the test. The people responsible for these outrages are INDIVIDUALS and the law enforcement agencies must never lose sight of this fact. The individuals concerned must be tracked down and required to subject themselves to the same judicial mechanisms which would apply to any other person accused of committing a crime in Germany.

It is only after this process has been seen through that the social scientists can begin to analyse what went wrong and perhaps suggest some public policy measures which might reduce the risk of it happening again. In my opinion Angela Merkel is possibly the coolest head in a crisis in the entire geo-political pantheon so I am cautiously optimistic that Germany might yet be an example to the rest of the world on how to deal with this appalling event.
marjoram_blues wrote:So much for security. Did the police turn a blind eye...it deserves more investigation.
Obviously it needs more investigation, and no doubt more investigation will be forthcoming, but my cursory knowledge of the details so far released suggests that the cops were completely taken by surprise and overwhelmed by the sheer weight of numbers. This is consistent with similar such outbreaks of mass hysteria because such things are never planned by the perpetrators in advance. They tend to erupt on the spot and very often need only the most trivial of incidents to ignite into a full-blown conflagration.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:05 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:To neglect this aspect, would be to be dismissive of the women's experience which would then lead to inaction against a real threat.
I hope you didn't misconstrue my meaning by inferring that I was trying to somehow downplay the seriousness of this event because this was far from my intention. I merely suggest that the causal dynamics which trigger such behaviour are fiendishly difficult to unravel and that there is a real risk that a knee-jerk response driven by simplistic assumptions will probably do more harm than good. Obviously there's going to be a harsh populist backlash against all migrant and refugee groups by those who find comfort in such simplistic assumptions and the authorities will need to stand firm as a bulwark against such retaliation. Germany is a sophisticated modern nation governed under principles of the rule of law and it is events such as this which put those principles to the test. The people responsible for these outrages are INDIVIDUALS and the law enforcement agencies must never lose sight of this fact. The individuals concerned must be tracked down and required to subject themselves to the same judicial mechanisms which would apply to any other person accused of committing a crime in Germany.

It is only after this process has been seen through that the social scientists can begin to analyse what went wrong and perhaps suggest some public policy measures which might reduce the risk of it happening again. In my opinion Angela Merkel is possibly the coolest head in a crisis in the entire geo-political pantheon so I am cautiously optimistic that Germany might yet be an example to the rest of the world on how to deal with this appalling event.
marjoram_blues wrote:So much for security. Did the police turn a blind eye...it deserves more investigation.
Obviously it needs more investigation, and no doubt more investigation will be forthcoming, but my cursory knowledge of the details so far released suggests that the cops were completely taken by surprise and overwhelmed by the sheer weight of numbers. This is consistent with similar such outbreaks of mass hysteria because such things are never planned by the perpetrators in advance. They tend to erupt on the spot and very often need only the most trivial of incidents to ignite into a full-blown conflagration.
I agree that there is a danger of knee-jerk responses and I feel pity for those who may well now be targeted by others fearful of an incoming alien 'crowd'. It is a time for careful reporting and analysis of events.

Gangs of men are made up of individuals; they are organised. And yes, criminal behaviour should and will be pursued. I'm not sure that this is an example of mass hysteria, erupting from a trivial incident.
As you say, multiple factors are involved. I look forward to seeing how this plays out in Germany. And I hope that all factors are given the attention they deserve.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:24 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:I'm not sure that this is an example of mass hysteria, erupting from a trivial incident.
It certainly has all the hallmarks of a mass hysteria incident, but mine is very much an off-the-cuff analysis based on very sketchy information and no doubt more details will be revealed as they come to hand. Whether or not it erupted from a single trivial incident may never be known but there is ample precedent for the possibility.

Skip
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Skip » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:54 pm

I have no doubt of the mass frenzy phenomenon, but the targets of such rampages are never random: they are pre-selected by the culture and the socio-political climate of the times.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:34 am

Skip wrote:I have no doubt of the mass frenzy phenomenon, but the targets of such rampages are never random: they are pre-selected by the culture and the socio-political climate of the times.
I have no doubt that this is true but such a pre-selection must not be conflated in any way with an organised conspiracy to undermine the cultural values of whichever society happens to be on the receiving end of it. In my view it's far better to portray the guilty as just ordinary shitheads and gangsters rather than look for a common thread which probably doesn't exist. In fact most of these very shitheads are probably more scared at the thought of having to explain themselves to their mothers than they are of the police. When you get them one-on-one ALL bullies are cowards.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:44 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:I'm not sure that this is an example of mass hysteria, erupting from a trivial incident.
It certainly has all the hallmarks of a mass hysteria incident, but mine is very much an off-the-cuff analysis based on very sketchy information and no doubt more details will be revealed as they come to hand. Whether or not it erupted from a single trivial incident may never be known but there is ample precedent for the possibility.
So not much different from a potentially harmful knee-jerk response you are so wary of. Please tell me what the hallmarks of a mass hysteria incident are. And how they relate to the Cologne attacks. Thanks.

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