paternalistic men

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Kayla
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paternalistic men

Post by Kayla »

i got into an argument with a hardcore femininist recently about different forms sexism takes

in my martial arts class it is difficult for me to get good quality sparring as many men - and boys for that matter - are psychologically unable to use their full strength with me

on the farm men - including men whose boss i am in theory - will try to maneuver me away from any potentially dangerous farm machinery - and generally act more protective than is really necessary

the feminist i discussed this with sees this sexism as being as bad as the more overt sexism that you can find in, say, men who beat their wives

i do not see that

yes, its a bit annoying

but its also kind of sweet and i feel very safe with men who do these things

they are - in my mind - very different from men who treat women badly

thoughts?
Obvious Leo
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Obvious Leo »

An an old bloke and a biologist I tend to think a bit the same way as you do, Kayla. Just as there are primal hard-core maternal instincts built into the psychological make-up of women so there are corresponding hard-wired instincts in men. For men to be protective of women and children need not be seen as being patronising or in any way a put-down by modern women. Maybe he's just being a nice bloke and that's all there is to it.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women, and can do a whole bunch of things better than we can. I'm very grateful when a man helps me with some kind of practical task that I can't do, like fixing a burst pipe, or replacing rotten timber, or fixing a broken gate, or lifting something that I can't. Men used to love helping women. Unfortunately, thanks to your feminazi, those kind of men are becoming rarer and rarer. My grandfather had three trades, and he just couldn't help fixing anything he saw broken or 'not right', at his own house and any other house he went to. Practical, handy, helpful men are the best kind. (Remember all those single philosophers? :D )
Obvious Leo
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Obvious Leo »

VT. I think I can honestly say that I was a feminist long before it became fashionable for blokes to confess to being so. At no stage have I ever felt that this stance conflicted with the image I have of myself as a rather blokey sort of bloke. I love doing practical things with my hands, I'm very good with tools, I love most sports, I try to behave in a gentlemanly fashion in the company of women and then find that I often act like a big kid in the company of men. Like all men I've never actually grown up and when my grandsons fart loudly I urge them to brag about it.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Kayla wrote:i got into an argument with a hardcore femininist recently about different forms sexism takes

in my martial arts class it is difficult for me to get good quality sparring as many men - and boys for that matter - are psychologically unable to use their full strength with me

on the farm men - including men whose boss i am in theory - will try to maneuver me away from any potentially dangerous farm machinery - and generally act more protective than is really necessary

the feminist i discussed this with sees this sexism as being as bad as the more overt sexism that you can find in, say, men who beat their wives

i do not see that

yes, its a bit annoying

but its also kind of sweet and i feel very safe with men who do these things

they are - in my mind - very different from men who treat women badly

thoughts?
I can see her point. It's a bit like the patronising holding the door open "for a lady". Or stopping swearing when "a lady" walks in the room. In these sorts of cases men are making exceptions for women, and this is the positive side of sexism, but this justifies a wider sexism. Racism works in this way too.

So lets say that you start a national association to give grants to education to blacks only. Or you create a science prize or journalism prize for people of a particular race? If the race is seen as disadvantaged then you can sort of justify it. But in doing so you make real the differences. In saying that some races deserve this or that, you make those differences real, and thus racism becomes more firmly ingrained into the fabric of society.
It's easy to see why you might want to get black kids out of the ghetto into higher education, but the Jewish science prize? Or the Jewish prize for literature? When Jews are already overrepresented in both literature and science in the US, this is more easy to see as prejudicial.

So back to gender. If I hold a door open for a woman, I am doing two things. I am saying that a woman is different when it comes to opening doors, and that by following her, I am actually saying I am her superior - I am taking the initiative.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,)
That is not true. This is only statistically true, as there are women who are bigger and stronger than some men.

Making allowances just because of gender is patronising. I'm sure most women are perfectly capable of driving a tractor. The real test is do these men make allowances for puny men, or man who are under average size: probably not.
Kayla is right to be annoyed.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,)
That is not true. This is only statistically true, as there are women who are bigger and stronger than some men.

Making allowances just because of gender is patronising. I'm sure most women are perfectly capable of driving a tractor. The real test is do these men make allowances for puny men, or man who are under average size: probably not.
Kayla is right to be annoyed.
I wasn't going to insult everyone's intelligence by saying, 'well, statistically men are bigger and stronger than women but there are some tiny, weak men, and huge, mega-strong women...' --it's pretty fucking obvious and surplus to requirements. It's not patronizing to be kind and helpful. It's a sad time for human beings when that has come to be the case.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,)
That is not true. This is only statistically true, as there are women who are bigger and stronger than some men.

Making allowances just because of gender is patronising. I'm sure most women are perfectly capable of driving a tractor. The real test is do these men make allowances for puny men, or man who are under average size: probably not.
Kayla is right to be annoyed.
I wasn't going to insult everyone's intelligence by saying, 'well, statistically men are bigger and stronger than women but there are some tiny, weak men, and huge, mega-strong women...' -.
No but you did insult everyone's intelligence and let yourself down by saying :"That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,", about a woman you've never met, then went on to ignore the point I made which might make her comment make some sense.
Obvious Leo
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Obvious Leo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:It's not patronizing to be kind and helpful.
I was brought up in both a family and cultural environment where being kind and helpful towards others was assumed as a central feature of the social zeitgeist. We just called it "good manners".
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
No but you did insult everyone's intelligence and let yourself down by saying :"That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,", about a woman you've never met, then went on to ignore the point I made which might make her comment make some sense.
Not if it happens to be true. There's a big difference between being 'feminist' and 'feminazi'. Feminazis are irrational nutters who don't have the intelligence to think rationally or fairly. Having said that, the OP smacks of the other side of the coin, the 'helpless wee me, I'm just so tiny, cute and adorable that big, strong men can't help but be all paternalistic around me' syndrome. They are both equally annoying.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
No but you did insult everyone's intelligence and let yourself down by saying :"That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,", about a woman you've never met, then went on to ignore the point I made which might make her comment make some sense.
Not if it happens to be true. There's a big difference between being 'feminist' and 'feminazi'. Feminazis are irrational nutters who don't have the intelligence to think rationally or fairly. Having said that, the OP smacks of the other side of the coin, the 'helpless wee me, I'm just so tiny, cute and adorable that big, strong men can't help but be all paternalistic around me' syndrome. They are both equally annoying.
yes, it looks like you are describing yourself. As you have no found yourself able to think rationally or fairly about a person you have never met, who has a point of view, that you have ignored.
I suggested how such a view might be rational, and you ignored it.
So sorry, you've shot yourself in the foot.
Then you insult Kayla too. It's almost like no one is allowed to be anyone but you.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
No but you did insult everyone's intelligence and let yourself down by saying :"That feminazi is a stupid bitch. The fact is that men ARE bigger and stronger than women,", about a woman you've never met, then went on to ignore the point I made which might make her comment make some sense.
Not if it happens to be true. There's a big difference between being 'feminist' and 'feminazi'. Feminazis are irrational nutters who don't have the intelligence to think rationally or fairly. Having said that, the OP smacks of the other side of the coin, the 'helpless wee me, I'm just so tiny, cute and adorable that big, strong men can't help but be all paternalistic around me' syndrome. They are both equally annoying.
yes, it looks like you are describing yourself. As you have no found yourself able to think rationally or fairly about a person you have never met, who has a point of view, that you have ignored.
I suggested how such a view might be rational, and you ignored it.
So sorry, you've shot yourself in the foot.
Then you insult Kayla too. It's almost like no one is allowed to be anyone but you.
You make no sense. I'm sorry for that.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Not if it happens to be true. There's a big difference between being 'feminist' and 'feminazi'. Feminazis are irrational nutters who don't have the intelligence to think rationally or fairly. Having said that, the OP smacks of the other side of the coin, the 'helpless wee me, I'm just so tiny, cute and adorable that big, strong men can't help but be all paternalistic around me' syndrome. They are both equally annoying.
yes, it looks like you are describing yourself. As you have no found yourself able to think rationally or fairly about a person you have never met, who has a point of view, that you have ignored.
I suggested how such a view might be rational, and you ignored it.
So sorry, you've shot yourself in the foot.
Then you insult Kayla too. It's almost like no one is allowed to be anyone but you.
You make no sense. I'm sorry for that.
The sense is there for anyone capable of seeing it.
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Kayla
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Kayla »

Hobbes' Choice wrote: So sorry, you've shot yourself in the foot.
Then you insult Kayla too. It's almost like no one is allowed to be anyone but you.
the message was kind of obnoxious as it was not totally off base

but it does seem to be a thing among well brought up southern US girls that when dealing with older males we easily fall into a daughter / kid sister role - and the southern (and hispanic) men fall into the paternalistic role - this seems to happen quite independently of social status as long as the man has a social status (e.g. is not bum)

this is often harmless but in some cases it can be unproductive - e.g. when i have to supervise middled aged old fashioned men - who are terrified that the little me will get hurt by the farm machinery that only real men can handle properly
Scott Mayers
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Re: paternalistic men

Post by Scott Mayers »

Personally, even as a guy, I've had others, both men or women, act protective where dangers exist. I have the habit of holding a door open for both men and women equally. Bot men and women on the extremes dislike this. For some women who interpret my action as intending insult, I get interpreted as likely one of those wanting to dominate by presuming them incapable of opening doors. For men who interpret this as insulting, they often believe this act as dominating them too but often due to their own strong belief in demonstrating their position of power. [This is most often seen in politics. Did you ever see how leaders of countries (usually male) competitively try to be the one to allow the other to be hosted through their body gesturing, including trying to compete to be the one who holds the door open for the other?

I know as a relatively short guy, I always hated when anyone (usually male) hovers over you and places a hand on your back as if being reassuring like some father figure (paternal). But this very factor of my experience proves that this behavior is not always about being anti-feminist. It is about our differences in physiques that often define how people behave as much as to what each sex prefers in their mates based on more primitive factors: like that men are favored where they are taller and stronger by women and women are more favored where they are petite and apparently vulnerable. Our biology has not caught up to our intellectual capacities yet.

Women equally dominate but in different ways. But we still associate 'strength' as physically defined and ignore how 'strength' is also about other factors. If I discover a woman who interprets my act to open a door for her as trying to overpower her, I take insult because I interpret her as thinking of me as having power I don't have because my learned behavior was only due to being accused of being intrinsically wrong no matter what I subtly do and so I make a more concerted effort to be kind to everyone similarly. If such a woman is still adamant to presume me acting in disgrace even if I explain myself, I'm forced to thinking she actually believes that I don't qualify for her own interpretation of what a 'strong' person represents.

So it is best to interpret someone as being more or less sincere depending on their real power you learn they have in time and not their perceived ones based on social stereotypes.
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