Male and Female presence.

[Duncan Butlin]

Hi Attofishpi

I fear the ward manager at this mental hospital is going to stop me posting on the internet, today -- he has already commented that I’m over-doing it, and has summoned me to a meeting to discuss it. Accordingly our discussion about artificial intelligence will have to come to an end for now.

Just in case I am out of commission for a long time, I am going to post an almost entirely off-the-subject link here, for consideration. It is about how men and women effect each other in public places, and I think it is the epitome of human achievement. Accordingly I think it a great Turing test up-date. I’d be overwhelmed if anyone found it of interest.

Here’s the link: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... zFmMjc4NTg

[duszek]

Can you at least watch TV and feel better by doing it ?

There are nice British thrillers with Inspector Barnaby and Inspector Lewis for example.

My friend who was depressed some time ago now rents a garden and spends lots of time in it. It is challenging to see how plants grow and how some of them get eaten by small animals. The activity is becoming a passion for him. He cooks the produce in the kitchen too.

What occupations are offered to psychiatric patients ?

I try to help myself and some of my friends by readings. What seems to have therapeutic effects is someone like Charles Dickens. I read the Pickwic Papers to my friend and he corrects my pronounciation. It is fun to immerse oneself in a hilarious world long gone.
I would be nice too to take turns so that everyone reads for ten minutes and then passes the book on to the next.

[attofishpi]

Hi Attofishpi

I fear the ward manager at this mental hospital is going to stop me posting on the internet, today -- he has already commented that I’m over-doing it, and has summoned me to a meeting to discuss it. Accordingly our discussion about artificial intelligence will have to come to an end for now.

Just in case I am out of commission for a long time, I am going to post an almost entirely off-the-subject link here, for consideration. It is about how men and women effect each other in public places, and I think it is the epitome of human achievement. Accordingly I think it a great Turing test up-date. I’d be overwhelmed if anyone found it of interest.

Here’s the link: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... zFmMjc4NTg

Hi Duncan

Last night i read the link you provided...it was very interesting. I found it was very appropriate as i had returned from a quiz night at a pub and witnessed pretty much all of the stated observations. The article puts me in mind of an 'alien' version of S. David Attenborough observing us as the animals that ultimately we are.

Hope you get sorted from those that think they have a cure for sanity....and remember...
this kids a friend of ya.

[Duncan Butlin]

Duszek --- Thanks very much for your sympathy. As per below, no need to feel very sorry for me. I don’t watch TV -- find it dulls my brain -- but I have plenty to read (“Do Fathers Matter?”, Paul Raeburn at the moment). It really is quite luxurious here, lots of activities, foods good … no real complaints except lack of freedom of movement, and the fact that they insist on medicating me.

Attofishpi --- Thanks for your approval and friendship. Wonderful that you have read my essay. Pubs are important places to me, not having any family in contact with me at the moment, and so that’s where I have learnt many of the ‘manners’ that I describe. It seems almost indecent to make the rules explicit (my essay seems to make some people’s brains stop working in shock!), but I believe the more conscious we are of them, the happier we’ll be.

I fear I will be in the hands of the medics for a while yet, but I have hopes of resisting the latest medication, aripiprazole, that they are using on me. If I can avoid getting depressed, then my brain should be able to continue functioning not too badly. At the moment I am optimistic, so I’m not really suffering at all inside this hospital (aside from the occasional noisy outbursts from other patients!).

I want to take my ideas about the differences between men and women forward and form a Men’s Studies department at Oxford university (to oppose all the Women’s Studies departments around the world). Any ideas of how to achieve this? Supposing you agree? How can I get more people to read my essay?

[attofishpi]

Attofishpi --- Thanks for your approval and friendship. Wonderful that you have read my essay. Pubs are important places to me, not having any family in contact with me at the moment, and so that’s where I have learnt many of the ‘manners’ that I describe. It seems almost indecent to make the rules explicit (my essay seems to make some people’s brains stop working in shock!), but I believe the more conscious we are of them, the happier we’ll be.

I fear I will be in the hands of the medics for a while yet, but I have hopes of resisting the latest medication, aripiprazole, that they are using on me. If I can avoid getting depressed, then my brain should be able to continue functioning not too badly. At the moment I am optimistic, so I’m not really suffering at all inside this hospital (aside from the occasional noisy outbursts from other patients!).

I want to take my ideas about the differences between men and women forward and form a Men’s Studies department at Oxford university (to oppose all the Women’s Studies departments around the world). Any ideas of how to achieve this? Supposing you agree? How can I get more people to read my essay?

Hi Duncan

I was really impressed with the article. I'm sure there are many that find it uncomfortable reading. If a baboon could read and contemplate the intricacies of its primal instincts i'm sure he\she\it would feel the same!

On a lighter note...this is rather funny if you havent already seen it, an interview of John Oliver with Stephen Hawking re AI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8y5EXFMD4s

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Hello Duncan Butlin,


Just read your Male and Female Presence. LOVED it.


You are quite insightful and yet logical and clear in your approach to writing.


I wish you well. Don't know what you are going through, but I wish you that.




Your piece, Male and Female Presence is from 2009. Anything more recent?





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[Duncan Butlin]

Attofishpi --- Thanks again for taking my piece seriously. You are about the fifth person in the world to read it! Thanks also for the Stephen Hawking clip -- I really enjoyed it.

Bill Wiltrack --- Thanks also for your appreciation -- very heart-warming. I am afraid I do not have much newly created stuff -- recent writing has mainly been in emails -- but I’ve been working along the same lines since 1985, and since almost none of it has been published, it is all still fairly relevant. This sex war has been going on for millions of years, and men have been losing out big time in many societies for thousands of years, if I’ve got it right, so any blow properly struck for men, no matter how ancient, is worthwhile celebrating.

I am in the process of putting some of my writing on a website called ‘SuffrageurButlin’. Here is a link to the page on sociobiology -- just started today! Again it’s really old stuff, but nevertheless relevant, I claim.

https://sites.google.com/site/suffrageu ... obiology-1

[Bill Wiltrack]

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I've got your site on my favorites list.


I will be reading all of your works in the coming days.



You need to write more!


Even if it is very short pieces or thoughts. Creating them on the PhilosophyNow Forums is a GREAT way to exercise your brain and to obtain immediate reactions from fellow members.



Good luck with all that passes through you...


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[Duncan Butlin]

Bill Wiltrack --- Thank you again for your interest, it really is most kind of you and I find it very encouraging. I will put documents on my website just as soon as I develop the confidence! Please note the free copyright notice: anyone can copy anything, for free. If my ideas spread, that will be the most wonderful reward in the world. If you want to use my ideas on the website or here on Philosophy Now for any purpose -- even to tear them to pieces, of course -- then please feel free to go ahead. I will be most honoured if anyone is that interested.

Here’s the link to the home page: https://sites.google.com/site/suffrageurbutlin/

[NielsBohr]

Hi Duncan Butlin,

I thought that you were about to suggest the gender indication in the profile... (what could be accurate, but if I think it is appropriate, I'll make the ask to a moderator).

-So I saw your link.

I have not read all (but I like a lot your quotation of Samurai, which invite us in living as we were about to die. I think it is very wise.

-I have not read all, because if I take you premise, you tell that women and man have a (felt) influence on "people". Neertheless, you have to consider at least 3 average-cases of study:

1. a woman in presence of a woman;
2. a woman in presence of a man (commutative relation, so only one of this kind);
3. a man in presence of a man.

I am surprised because of several facts:

• you evoke only males - nevertheless, your "official" title is about males and females (although the name of your document evokes only males);
• you have a complete paragraph about "masculinity" - but to be complete, you have to consider feminity ;
• you tell us that most of sciences are mute about your questions.

I am sure that sociology - or more precisely social psychology - has a lot of articles around the genders, supported by non less social experiments...

I think to know men who have not much presence in (real) society, and women who have much presence although they do nothing for it.

You cannot study every person, I know, but to be a few complete, you have to consider the average of both genders.

Otherwise, you were only writing poetry in prose - an eulogy to men.

-I think you can make some experiment in observing people. But be aware of the limits of observation.

Simone de Beauvoir wrote that an observation - even an attempt in doing this - was a kind of possession. Even more if practiced without the conscientious of the observed person. (What could appear contradictory.)

I f you re-find this quotation of Simone de Beauvoir to enlighten your study, you'll get my respect.

[Duncan Butlin]

NielsBohr --- I am overwhelmed. Your criticisms are very accurate and to answer you properly will stretch me to the very limit. I have just learnt that the aripiprazole medication that is being forced on me probably reduces my IQ by about 18 points, so I fear I will not be able to satisfy your requests -- I can scarcely marshall my old arguments, let alone come up with the new theories you are asking for.

Nevertheless I will do my best. It will take me a few days, so please bear with me. If you can come up with these questions without reading all my piece, God help me when you read it in detail! As you say, it is more an eulogy to men than a balanced article … to praise men and women in the same article may be beyond me.

Thanks very much indeed for taking me seriously. I agree, by the way, that it would be nice if people revealed their sex in their profiles -- it’s something I tried to implement the last time I was posting in 2010. I am definitely a heterosexual male, though I had some homosexual experience at boarding school, 16 years old.

[NielsBohr]

Dear Mister,

Thank you a lot for your answer of courtesy, I did not expected a so nice answer.

I won't invite you in revealing personal details (I mean if you are recognizable on the photo) - this would be more secure if you avoid to.

Don't worry, I won't disturb you for these next days.

I see you think to have the ability of an objective view within 3 days. I won't desperate you, but at the contrary to prevent you of being too ambitious.

If you would like to make an average on ten persons of each gender, I think only the observation are susceptible to take these three days - only the notes. Maybe a waiting room, but if you are waiting to meet the doctor or anything else to do this, it can take rather one year.

N. B.: I have nothing against poetry if you want to write this way. I was about to think that it would be rather a psychological way.

Best regards.

[Duncan Butlin]

NielsBohr --- I’m sorry, but I have decided I cannot produce anything original at the moment -- too many other things going on in this mad house! Instead I have posted on my website two items exhibiting female strengths. To balance my presence piece these ideas would have to be woven in, but I haven’t the capability to do it at present. Perhaps you can do so in your own mind?

I am struggling with your Simone de Beauvoir quote. I agree it is very easy to be selfish when you are observing human behaviour -- only concerned with your own thoughts -- but the other’s interests can also be born in mind if an effort is made. If you are always ready for interaction on an equal basis, full respect accorded, then I think the act of observation, as an invitation to relate, can be almost selfless. In other words you no more possess the other than they possess you. This is the way I justify my own behaviour, at least.

Here’s the link to my ‘female virtues’ page:

https://sites.google.com/site/suffrageu ... le-virtues

[NielsBohr]

I am struggling with your Simone de Beauvoir quote. I agree it is very easy to be selfish when you are observing human behaviour -- only concerned with your own thoughts -- but the other’s interests can also be born in mind if an effort is made. If you are always ready for interaction on an equal basis, full respect accorded, then I think the act of observation, as an invitation to relate, can be almost selfless. In other words you no more possess the other than they possess you. This is the way I justify my own behaviour, at least.

Hi Duncan !

I try to re-find the quotation, too. And I do not remember where I saw this, but I can guarantee you that the essence was on my message above. I have some quotations of famous persons in an application - I do not desperate to re-find it.

I did not see your second link yet, but
Very interesting your notion about a bijective possession !

[Duncan Butlin]

I am longing for someone to look at my above link to female virtues.

The reason I think understanding presence is so important is because I believe it can replace religion, or at least the God bit of religion. There is far more to religion than theology, of course -- all the social and communal aspects -- but I think the concept of presence supports such activities better than the concept of God does, being free of dogma and magic. A major advantage is to lay the responsibility for action to improve the world squarely on man’s (and woman’s) shoulders.

This is rather a grand claim, I know, but I believe it can be substantiated. Presence is a force that permeates every social gathering, just like the presence of God is supposed to do, and the presence of someone intent on evil replaces the concept of the Devil. In any gathering the good and the bad fight it out. It's a miracle how often the good wins out … but I suppose we could not be a social species if it didn't.