Public Vice, Private Virtue

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Gloominary
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Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Gloominary » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:19 pm

The lazier, more slothful and unproductive people are at work, the less money they'll tend to have, the less they'll be able to consume and indulge in their spare time.
The less they splurge and consume, the less resources will have to be extracted from the earth, saving the environment in the process.
Myself I think everyone that can should pay their way, but other than that, why pressure ourselves or others to achieve more, or be more productive than they feel like being?

Is their some deficiency of productivity I'm not aware of?
Are machines not amplifying productivity a hundred fold?
The world is awash with mechanical and organic capital, saturated.
Is there a lack of creativity or goods and services?
Is the earth and its bounty inexhaustible?
Are workaholics really so virtuous?
Is their intent to benefit society, or are they merely more avaricious than the rest of us?

I think in many-most cases it's more-mostly a case of the latter, not the former.
People are having less kids, and I think that's a good thing, people should only have one or two kids these days max, after all the less rare humans are, the bigger the supply of humans is, the more the demand for them goes down, as it should, rightfully so.
The last thing we need is more mouths to feed, more crowds, pollution and noise.
Speaking of which we need to cut down on immigrants, way too bloody man of them.

The problem is people are still working too hard.
How hard do you have to work if you only have your self to support or one kid?
Why do you need a house?
Why not just wait for your parents to die so you can move into theirs, or live in their basement, or just rent or buy a one or two bedroom?
What do you need a big, stupid house for, when you'd rather be online than cutting the grass anyway, cleaning or decorating rooms and things you rarely if ever use?
The things and stuff online are free, you don't have to work for them, it's a virtual Garden of Eden.
If I want to hear a piece of music, or watch a video, or play a game, I simply pluck it from the tree.

It's fun to recycle and throw things away.
I'm always thinking of reasons I don't need things that I have, or reasons I don't need to buy things.
Things take up so much space, and you can usually get by just fine without them.
Before the end of the year I'm going to look through all the things I have, which probably isn't much lot by most peoples standards, and figure out which ones I'm going to toss in the bin.
I can't wait, it's going to be so much fun!
Don't even donate them, return the materials to nature where they belong.
There are too many people with too much things.
Population should be 90-99% of what it is.

You see this guy right here:

Image

Or this guy here:

Image

It's because of guys like this, the secular Bernarde Mandevilles on the one hand, and the religious John Calvins on the other, the world is so topsy-turvy.
The scourge of consumerism began primarily in the northwestern nations of Europe in the renaissance and 'enlightenment', but it did not end there, we took our dark values with us wherever we went, and they have since encompassed the whole globe, and perhaps they served us Europeans for a time, but they've long outlived their usefulness, their sustainability.
I think it's time some of us toss these values in the scrapheap, and search for new ones.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:46 pm

Wow. A post on a philosophy forum that makes you think and see things from a different perspective. No wonder you haven't had any replies :)
Imagine the carbon footprint of a Trump compared to someone on a very low income who does without overseas holidays, a new car every year (or a car), brand new appliances when the old ones worked perfectly well, and every new gadget that comes on the market... We will always have the rich, but they don't have to be so wasteful, and the poor should be treated with respect--not as pariahs who have somehow 'failed'.

Nick_A
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Nick_A » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:44 pm

Gloominary

It's because of guys like this, the secular Bernarde Mandevilles on the one hand, and the religious John Calvins on the other, the world is so topsy-turvy.
The scourge of consumerism began primarily in the northwestern nations of Europe in the renaissance and 'enlightenment', but it did not end there, we took our dark values with us wherever we went, and they have since encompassed the whole globe, and perhaps they served us Europeans for a time, but they've long outlived their usefulness, their sustainability.
I think it's time some of us toss these values in the scrapheap, and search for new ones.

IMO we don’t need new values but must collectively remember what has been forgotten.

From Jacob Needleman’s book: The American Soul
Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.
This is really a profound observation. It is normal to think that materialism is the cause of societal degeneration but actually materialism and commercialism is the lawful result of the loss of a quality of ideas that touch both the heart and mind of Man awakening us to the reality of remembering and adopting higher values in response to the needs of our inner lives. I know how much philosophy has lost its meaning and value to become a contest for arguing self importance. I know how much religion has just become a tool for societal manipulation as opposed to its purpose of nourishing the soul of Man. If you can see a way the situation as a whole can improve I am all eyes and ears. IMO it will always be only a minority who grasp the reality of the human condition and how it prevents Man from becoming human as opposed to a slave of materialism and consumerism. They will be absorbed by the majority who demand obedience to the secular attitudes made possible through the attractions of technology. Only once we hit bottom will it finally change.

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Harbal
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Harbal » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:53 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:44 pm
This is really a profound observation. It is normal to think that materialism is the cause of societal degeneration but actually materialism and commercialism is the lawful result of the loss of a quality of ideas that touch both the heart and mind of Man awakening us to the reality of remembering and adopting higher values in response to the needs of our inner lives. I know how much philosophy has lost its meaning and value to become a contest for arguing self importance. I know how much religion has just become a tool for societal manipulation as opposed to its purpose of nourishing the soul of Man. If you can see a way the situation as a whole can improve I am all eyes and ears. IMO it will always be only a minority who grasp the reality of the human condition and how it prevents Man from becoming human as opposed to a slave of materialism and consumerism. They will be absorbed by the majority who demand obedience to the secular attitudes made possible through the attractions of technology. Only once we hit bottom will it finally change.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:03 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:44 pm
Gloominary

It's because of guys like this, the secular Bernarde Mandevilles on the one hand, and the religious John Calvins on the other, the world is so topsy-turvy.
The scourge of consumerism began primarily in the northwestern nations of Europe in the renaissance and 'enlightenment', but it did not end there, we took our dark values with us wherever we went, and they have since encompassed the whole globe, and perhaps they served us Europeans for a time, but they've long outlived their usefulness, their sustainability.
I think it's time some of us toss these values in the scrapheap, and search for new ones.

IMO we don’t need new values but must collectively remember what has been forgotten.

From Jacob Needleman’s book: The American Soul
Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.
This is really a profound observation. It is normal to think that materialism is the cause of societal degeneration but actually materialism and commercialism is the lawful result of the loss of a quality of ideas that touch both the heart and mind of Man awakening us to the reality of remembering and adopting higher values in response to the needs of our inner lives. I know how much philosophy has lost its meaning and value to become a contest for arguing self importance. I know how much religion has just become a tool for societal manipulation as opposed to its purpose of nourishing the soul of Man. If you can see a way the situation as a whole can improve I am all eyes and ears. IMO it will always be only a minority who grasp the reality of the human condition and how it prevents Man from becoming human as opposed to a slave of materialism and consumerism. They will be absorbed by the majority who demand obedience to the secular attitudes made possible through the attractions of technology. Only once we hit bottom will it finally change.
You had to go and spoil it at the end. I think you will find that the religous can be just as greedy and materialistic as anyone else--religion simply adds hypocrisy to the equation.

Nick_A
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Nick_A » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:34 am

Vege
You had to go and spoil it at the end. I think you will find that the religous can be just as greedy and materialistic as anyone else--religion simply adds hypocrisy to the equation.
You don’t realize that what you call religious is often secular. It is just as secular and caught up in the world as politics.

That is why St. John of the Cross calls faith a night. With those who have received a Christian education, the lower parts of the soul become attached to these mysteries when they have no right at all to do so. That is why such people need a purification of which St. John of the Cross describes the stages. Atheism and incredulity constitute an equivalent of such a purification.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 418
The essence of religion and the ideas connected with it nourish the soul. The ideas and dialectic associated with real philosophy as opposed to modern philosophy which is just secular arguing for ego supremacy. Allows us to “remember” (anamnesis) what has been forgotten. When we lose both, materialism and commercialism is the natural compensation for the loss of the inner direction and experience of objective meaning and the higher values associated with them.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:10 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:34 am
Vege
You had to go and spoil it at the end. I think you will find that the religous can be just as greedy and materialistic as anyone else--religion simply adds hypocrisy to the equation.
You don’t realize that what you call religious is often secular. It is just as secular and caught up in the world as politics.

That is why St. John of the Cross calls faith a night. With those who have received a Christian education, the lower parts of the soul become attached to these mysteries when they have no right at all to do so. That is why such people need a purification of which St. John of the Cross describes the stages. Atheism and incredulity constitute an equivalent of such a purification.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 418
The essence of religion and the ideas connected with it nourish the soul. The ideas and dialectic associated with real philosophy as opposed to modern philosophy which is just secular arguing for ego supremacy. Allows us to “remember” (anamnesis) what has been forgotten. When we lose both, materialism and commercialism is the natural compensation for the loss of the inner direction and experience of objective meaning and the higher values associated with them.
And by the same token you don't realise that what you call 'secular' is often very spititual.

Nick_A
Posts: 1953
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Nick_A » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:42 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:10 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:34 am
Vege
You had to go and spoil it at the end. I think you will find that the religous can be just as greedy and materialistic as anyone else--religion simply adds hypocrisy to the equation.
You don’t realize that what you call religious is often secular. It is just as secular and caught up in the world as politics.

That is why St. John of the Cross calls faith a night. With those who have received a Christian education, the lower parts of the soul become attached to these mysteries when they have no right at all to do so. That is why such people need a purification of which St. John of the Cross describes the stages. Atheism and incredulity constitute an equivalent of such a purification.
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 418
The essence of religion and the ideas connected with it nourish the soul. The ideas and dialectic associated with real philosophy as opposed to modern philosophy which is just secular arguing for ego supremacy. Allows us to “remember” (anamnesis) what has been forgotten. When we lose both, materialism and commercialism is the natural compensation for the loss of the inner direction and experience of objective meaning and the higher values associated with them.
And by the same token you don't realise that what you call 'secular' is often very spititual.
Quite true. Spirituality of the earth is one leveled so is by definition secular. Shamanism, wicca, and various other religions are spiritual and have the earth as their origin. However the higher parts of the collective soul of man did not arise on the earth but rather descended from above. This spiritual energy that helps the soul of man return to its origin is not animal emotional energy but the energy of the spirit that always was.

Gloominary
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Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Gloominary » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:47 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:46 pm
Wow. A post on a philosophy forum that makes you think and see things from a different perspective. No wonder you haven't had any replies :)
Imagine the carbon footprint of a Trump compared to someone on a very low income who does without overseas holidays, a new car every year (or a car), brand new appliances when the old ones worked perfectly well, and every new gadget that comes on the market... We will always have the rich, but they don't have to be so wasteful, and the poor should be treated with respect--not as pariahs who have somehow 'failed'.
Or maybe people should only be allowed to have what they need, and little more.

Gloominary
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:10 pm

Re: Public Vice, Private Virtue

Post by Gloominary » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:55 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:44 pm
Gloominary

It's because of guys like this, the secular Bernarde Mandevilles on the one hand, and the religious John Calvins on the other, the world is so topsy-turvy.
The scourge of consumerism began primarily in the northwestern nations of Europe in the renaissance and 'enlightenment', but it did not end there, we took our dark values with us wherever we went, and they have since encompassed the whole globe, and perhaps they served us Europeans for a time, but they've long outlived their usefulness, their sustainability.
I think it's time some of us toss these values in the scrapheap, and search for new ones.

IMO we don’t need new values but must collectively remember what has been forgotten.

From Jacob Needleman’s book: The American Soul
Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.
This is really a profound observation. It is normal to think that materialism is the cause of societal degeneration but actually materialism and commercialism is the lawful result of the loss of a quality of ideas that touch both the heart and mind of Man awakening us to the reality of remembering and adopting higher values in response to the needs of our inner lives. I know how much philosophy has lost its meaning and value to become a contest for arguing self importance. I know how much religion has just become a tool for societal manipulation as opposed to its purpose of nourishing the soul of Man. If you can see a way the situation as a whole can improve I am all eyes and ears. IMO it will always be only a minority who grasp the reality of the human condition and how it prevents Man from becoming human as opposed to a slave of materialism and consumerism. They will be absorbed by the majority who demand obedience to the secular attitudes made possible through the attractions of technology. Only once we hit bottom will it finally change.
I'm not sure what you mean by higher values, but I think materialism and hedonism exist, because people fail to distinguish between needs and desires, they pile up the former often at the expense of the latter.
Either people need to educate themselves, or they need to be educated, one of the two.
Thousands of species are perishing, and thousands more will continue to, the time for half measures is far behind us.

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