Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote: I don't regard psychology as a science.
Mental illness has nothing to do with psychology. Human psychology concerns itself with the study of human behaviour but mental illness relates directly to psychopathology, which is a specialised area of medicine generally known as psychiatry.
Philosophy Explorer wrote: While some may be shocked to hear this, I still regard those with mental illness as criminals
I doubt that anybody will be in the least bit surprised to hear you say this. Thus far you have never shown any reluctance to openly demonstrate your monumental ignorance.
Of course I also regard psychiatry as a nonscience too.

Your opinions are showing again as you stand in ignorance of the truth looking to mollycoddle criminals (the ones with or without mental illness who commit crimes are still criminals in case that isn't clear to anyone).

BTW I'm happy that "El Chapo" was recaptured (he should have been executed for the 30,000 people he was responsible for murdering) and there were at least two other prison breaks in the US where a murdering prisoner was killed and the other recaptured and the other murderers were also recaptured, but I wouldn't have shed a tear if they were killed instead of recaptured.

PhilX
Obvious Leo
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Who's talking about mollycoddling criminals? I'm talking about a criminal justice system which makes our societies safer instead of more dangerous.
Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Obvious Leo wrote:

"People don't go to prison to learn how to be better citizens. They go to prison to make useful contacts so they can learn how to be better criminals. It's a vicious circle because a prison environment is probably the worst imaginable environment in which a person would be likely to rehabilitate himself. This is not rocket science but simple common sense and countries which adopt policies which acknowledge this blindly obvious fact have lower crime rates and thus lower incarceration rates."

You're saying that people learn how to be better criminals while in prison. Do you realize what you're saying? You can also get quite an education while being on the streets. More important, being locked up in prison keeps you from doing crimes outside. Prisons have to be harsh to encourage would-be criminals from doing crimes. This IS simple common sense. It's also well known that crime goes down when you have an effective police force to combat criminals as would-be criminals don't want to get caught and go to prison. Need I go over some more basics with you?

PhilX
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Obvious Leo »

The trouble with your simple common sense, Phil, is that it's utter bullshit and makes no sense at all. It has been the case throughout human history that the more harshly you treat the wrongdoers in society then the more likely it is that they will do something even worse. This is just a fact of human nature which any schoolteacher will confirm.
Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Obvious Leo wrote:The trouble with your simple common sense, Phil, is that it's utter bullshit and makes no sense at all. It has been the case throughout human history that the more harshly you treat the wrongdoers in society then the more likely it is that they will do something even worse. This is just a fact of human nature which any schoolteacher will confirm.
Give me two authorative articles that back up what you say and that also cover the points I have been bringing out because you have been doing bullshit of your own.

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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Obvious Leo »

You're kidding me aren't you? I've got better things to do with my time than try and educate a fucking idiot. I presume you believe that kicking the shit out the dog, belting the crap out of the kids, and giving the missus a black eye from time to time are also a good way to get them to behave. I don't need this sort of shit from a cretin who thinks like that.
Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Obvious Leo wrote:You're kidding me aren't you? I've got better things to do with my time than try and educate a fucking idiot. I presume you believe that kicking the shit out the dog, belting the crap out of the kids, and giving the missus a black eye from time to time are also a good way to get them to behave. I don't need this sort of shit from a cretin who thinks like that.
No wonder why Bob E. refers to you as Oblivious Leo. Your pretense at not wanting to educate this "fucking idiot" is just your way of saying that you can't meet my challenge. And your unwarranted presumptions are dead wrong. So if you don't need this sort of shit from a "cretin" that you presume to think like that, then find another thread from someone who thinks like you who wants to mollycoddle criminals and believes in turnstile justice until you wake up and are ready to return.

PhilX
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Obvious Leo »

A third of all the incarcerated persons in the world are being held in American jails. If your system is so fucking effective at crime prevention then how do you account for this astonishing statistic?
Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Obvious Leo wrote:A third of all the incarcerated persons in the world are being held in American jails. If your system is so fucking effective at crime prevention then how do you account for this astonishing statistic?
Not so astonishing. There are two primary reasons for this:

1) The war on drugs
2) Much longer sentences

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarce ... ted_States

Since recidivism has been mentioned, I should mention Wiki has an interesting section on it. Also Wiki says about a fifth of all incarcerated people in the world are in American jails, not 1/3.

The real question is why is the US is having a war on drugs and why the much longer prison sentences and what effect is that having on crime plus I have other questions? That will require more study and I have to catch up on my sleep. I'll catch up with you tomorrow.

PhilX
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by The Voice of Time »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:You know how technology keeps progressing so let's say we have this scenario.

We have a serial murderer who normally would be executed or punished for his crimes. Let's say that the people he killed can be restored back to life and that the restored people suffer no lingering effects from the murders. Let's further say that through an operation, the murderer can be changed so that he doesn't go around hurting or killing people anymore, in effect just as if the murders never happened.

Now it's true that the murders did occur. Yet they can be erased from the record books based on what I just said. Should the guilty be punished? What do you think?

PhilX
There are many opinions as to what is the purpose of punishment. I personally regard all that have anything to do with emotions to be irrational opinions.

The only legitimate purpose of imprisonment is to avoid further damage, we imprison people because they are dangerous. And while in prison, we treat them the best we can, to make them significantly less dangerous for an eventual reunion with society.

But there is a list problems with your thinking. And that is that people could still want to do it, and the consequences to society would be severe still. It could cost a lot of money, cost a lot of inconvenience, it is very fantastical to say that undoing murders will return people to an exact state just prior to their murder, and for various reasons there could be complications that would unable some, but not all, bodies from being resurrected, and that means there's always a statistical risk, and those who put people to that risk would still have to pay for it. Not to mention the possibility of great trauma as a cause of witnessing ones own murder, and if you then say their memories were erased, then you'd have the problem of having to erase somebody's memory which is a great offence in itself.

Therefore, even if it was possible, reality always dictates that significant offence could still take place. But to answer your question in a situation that is so fantastic that nothing majorly bad really came from: no, it would not make sense. But as soon as you just start to add a little bit of realism to your situation, you'll see that the hypothetical situation is hugely irrelevant, because any situation that comes close will still have huge problems to it.

I could mention though, that the conditions that the person would serve under, would be made in such a way as to optimize the person's rise to functionality within society. For instance, making the person study every day as part of the prison program, study to get a profession and/or finish school if that's a problem, and several other studies that might be relevant to become a fully functional citizen. Society does loose something when you look at it with any realism, and therefore there must be some kind of way the person can serve society to pay for the damage.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: It doesn't mean the cause of criminality are the courts. The prisoners had freedom of choice before doing the crime in the US overall.

PhilX
I think I understand what others above are saying. A 'crime' is a created 'law' to which can be arbitrarily anything of those in power to create AND enforce them.

As such, those who commit crimes are not necessarily violating an AGREED conduct given their specific conditions. Imprisonment is intended to (a) isolate some people from the population out of fear of them acting in ways that affect those demanding the laws that make them criminals, and (b) to act as a deterrent in the hopes that fear of incarceration is sufficient to make most NOT break those laws.

There is nothing intrinsically natural about moral laws to nature. It is only a convention of competing interests who require some means to keep those in most power to be comfortable. ['power' is just my reference to any government, whether dictatorial or democratic, not in itself any more valid to nature.]
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
It doesn't mean the cause of criminality are the courts. The prisoners had freedom of choice before doing the crime in the US overall.

PhilX
No the legislature is the primary cause of crime, its the courts that just have to to their bidding.
Consider that more than half of prisoners are in gaol for drugs and drugs related offences. Drug taking is a practice that is fundamentally VICTIMLESS.
In Victorian Britain, a trip to the opium den was not illegal and thus there were NO drug or drug related crimes.
You can just as easily say that the legislature has the free will to legalise drugs, and doing so would empty the prisons.
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:The trouble with your simple common sense, Phil, is that it's utter bullshit and makes no sense at all. It has been the case throughout human history that the more harshly you treat the wrongdoers in society then the more likely it is that they will do something even worse. This is just a fact of human nature which any schoolteacher will confirm.
Give me two authorative articles that back up what you say and that also cover the points I have been bringing out because you have been doing bullshit of your own.

PhilX
It's a no brainer.

Prima facie why should I not be able to take drugs if I want to. What right have you got to stop me? But put me in gaol for enjoying myself, and I am going to fuck the system over.
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: Not so astonishing. There are two primary reasons for this:

1) The war on drugs
2) Much longer sentences


PhilX
Duh.
Solution return drug use to "mind your own fucking business, its my body", and at a stroke you empty the prisons.
Case in point: The government causes crime; the courts fill the prisons.
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Re: Should people still be regarded as criminals under these circumstances?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:You can just as easily say that the legislature has the free will to legalise drugs, and doing so would empty the prisons.
In the short term it would solve one problem by creating another because the crime business is one of the biggest drivers of the US economy and to shut off such a lucrative source of revenue overnight would drive many corporations into bankruptcy, as well as add a few million unemployed lawyers to the dole queue. They'll also have a host of unemployed police, judges, court staff, parole officers, etc etc etc. Hobbesy my man, you're talking about destroying the American way of life because crime and punishment are inextricably interwoven into this primitive culture. Don't forget that we're talking about a fucking theocracy tugging the forelock to the biblical god of VENGEANCE, so they see themselves as merely enacting god's will. I doubt that they'll abandon their divine mission without a fight.
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