Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Arising_uk
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

Post by Arising_uk »

Seleucus wrote:I agree with you. I would be a lot more okay with foreigners in my country if they weren't easily granted citizenship but instead had no vote and could not hold any kinds of political offices.
Which is your country? As if it's America then this is already the case.

I disagree with you as if you are talking about immigrants then on the whole they wish to be part of the nation and as such should be given citizenship. The problem in my country is that we don't have a clear view of what being a citizen involves and what benefit there is to being one.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Arising_uk wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:18 am
Seleucus wrote:I agree with you. I would be a lot more okay with foreigners in my country if they weren't easily granted citizenship but instead had no vote and could not hold any kinds of political offices.
I disagree with you as if you are talking about immigrants then on the whole they wish to be part of the nation and as such should be given citizenship. The problem in my country is that we don't have a clear view of what being a citizen involves and what benefit there is to being one.
I still prefer the ancient model where citizenship is highly restricted. Not offered to anyone unless they marry or are adopted into citizenship, or possibly render an extraordinary service to the nation, wartime military duty for instance. People who would like to work, study, shop or retire in the country are in this way generally welcome.

What do you mean by "don't have a clear view of what being a citizen involves"?
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Arising_uk
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Seleucus wrote:I still prefer the ancient model where citizenship is highly restricted. Not offered to anyone unless they marry or are adopted into citizenship, or possibly render an extraordinary service to the nation, wartime military duty for instance. People who would like to work, study, shop or retire in the country are in this way generally welcome. ...
What does adoption involve?
What do you mean by "don't have a clear view of what being a citizen involves"?
There is no clear concept of 'Citizenship' in the UK. No 'rite of passage' into it, apart from an insane and inane civil service test that's been thought up for those who wish to immigrate here and ironically enough it's one that pretty much no current British citizen would pass.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

Post by Seleucus »

Arising_uk wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:46 am
Seleucus wrote:I still prefer the ancient model where citizenship is highly restricted. Not offered to anyone unless they marry or are adopted into citizenship, or possibly render an extraordinary service to the nation, wartime military duty for instance. People who would like to work, study, shop or retire in the country are in this way generally welcome. ...
What does adoption involve?
"to legally take another person's child into your own family and take care of him or her as your own child"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... lish/adopt
What do you mean by "don't have a clear view of what being a citizen involves"?
There is no clear concept of 'Citizenship' in the UK. No 'rite of passage' into it, apart from an insane and inane civil service test that's been thought up for those who wish to immigrate here and ironically enough it's one that pretty much no current British citizen would pass.
So we basically agree that the 'rite of passage' as you put it isn't satisfactory.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

Post by Seleucus »

davidm and Londoner, this is for you guys!! This young scholar is very reasonable and his YouTube channel highly informative and scholarly; just uploaded, let's watch...

Why do haplogroups matter? https://youtu.be/AabWNnVbXUU
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Arising_uk
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Seleucus wrote:"to legally take another person's child into your own family and take care of him or her as your own child" ...
So under your system citizens can adopt who they like?
So we basically agree that the 'rite of passage' as you put it isn't satisfactory.
It's basically pointless if your own citizens can't pass it.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Seleucus wrote:post_id=339516 time=1510624430 user_id=14903]
davidm and Londoner, this is for you guys!! This young scholar is very reasonable and his YouTube channel highly informative and scholarly; just uploaded, let's watch...
Well so far it seems to show that everything you said about race and haploid groups is bollocks.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Arising_uk wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:55 am
Seleucus wrote:"to legally take another person's child into your own family and take care of him or her as your own child" ...
So under your system citizens can adopt who they like?
Ironically, for political correctness it is becoming inappropriate to adopt from outside your racial and ethnic category... But I favor White people being generally allowed to adopt who they may. In Roman times adult adoption was also practiced.
So we basically agree that the 'rite of passage' as you put it isn't satisfactory.
It's basically pointless if your own citizens can't pass it.
The bar has to be set very high though...
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-1-
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Seleucus wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:10 am Yes, I understand that your lack of interest in any future for your people is directly connected to your meaningless nihilistic view.
I tend to view my view not necessarily as nihilistic in origin, but well-thought out, overly reasoned, and superbly intellectual. I admit that the end result seems exactly nihilistic from points of view that are a bit less broad in horizon, and obscured by whatever - by dogma in some cases, by lack of follow-through in logical conclusion in other cases, and by lack of sufficient factual knowledge of genetics.

And yes, my outlook is nihilistic, no denying that, when it comes to terms of dispersing my own DNA, and of disseminating my own semen. I advocate dis-semination instead of in-semination. This, I know, is also less than semi-nation-alistic. Said without intent to diss the seminal content of your point.

As to the meaninglessness... well, to you it may be a disparaging remark, or an expression of pity, or a way to show the superiority of your existence, but to me meaninglessness is a necessary conclusion of how life, human life, fits into the cosmic order of the universe. For me the pervasive and undeniable meaninglessness is not something to be ashamed of, because it's a fact-strength logical conclusion. To be angry or ashamed due to the meaninglessness of my life would be equivalent to being angry because the sky is blue and because gravity pulls things toward the centre of the Earth.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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-1- wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:15 am
Seleucus wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:10 am Yes, I understand that your lack of interest in any future for your people is directly connected to your meaningless nihilistic view.
I tend to view my view not necessarily as nihilistic in origin, but well-thought out, overly reasoned, and superbly intellectual. I admit that the end result seems exactly nihilistic from points of view that are a bit less broad in horizon, and obscured by whatever - by dogma in some cases, by lack of follow-through in logical conclusion in other cases, and by lack of sufficient factual knowledge of genetics.

And yes, my outlook is nihilistic, no denying that, when it comes to terms of dispersing my own DNA, and of disseminating my own semen. I advocate dis-semination instead of in-semination. This, I know, is also less than semi-nation-alistic. Said without intent to diss the seminal content of your point.

As to the meaninglessness... well, to you it may be a disparaging remark, or an expression of pity, or a way to show the superiority of your existence, but to me meaninglessness is a necessary conclusion of how life, human life, fits into the cosmic order of the universe. For me the pervasive and undeniable meaninglessness is not something to be ashamed of, because it's a fact-strength logical conclusion. To be angry or ashamed due to the meaninglessness of my life would be equivalent to being angry because the sky is blue and because gravity pulls things toward the centre of the Earth.
Just because you don't expect to have any children doesn't mean you have to give up on everything. There are plenty of ways to contribute to life.
Last edited by Seleucus on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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-1- wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:15 amI tend to view my view not necessarily as nihilistic in origin, but well-thought out, overly reasoned, and superbly intellectual.
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

Post by Dubious »

Seleucus wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:08 am
Dubious wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:54 pm Put another way, "humanity" has never had a culture of its own and the longer it takes to forge one the more insidious the danger to its overall existence.
Humanity may have had a common culture in the past, there seems to be evidence for a common material culture and also a proto-world-language.

I'm not at all interested in a global culture, I'm totally fine with others having their unique cultures, and us having ours.
...but no country on earth has a real "culture" anymore; they only have their own unique civilization in which culture is simply a legacy. The West, for better or worse, is much more transparent becoming massively diluted and transformed into a multicultural, multi-ethnic unit. What anyone wants or expects is immaterial based on how things are developing. It may not be agreeable but what the West was once including its unique cultural creations are barely recognized even by "Westerners" themselves most of the time. The end of something is usually the beginning of something else. The transformations of cultures and civilizations as witnessed by history is unrelenting. It's also not difficult to imagine that a more "global culture" may forge itself into a synthesis of many with its own unique patterns and permutations driving it forward as was the process with indigenous cultures of the past.

History is flux; its trajectories a mystery by any human calculation which, more often than not, resolves itself into the unexpected.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

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Seleucus wrote:Ironically, for political correctness it is becoming inappropriate to adopt from outside your racial and ethnic category... But I favor White people being generally allowed to adopt who they may. In Roman times adult adoption was also practiced. ...
So was slavery, you be bringing that back? Still, will you be putting any bar upon whom and who these white people can adopt?
The bar has to be set very high though...
I don't think there has to be a bar at all, just a clear set of rights, duties and benefits that accrue from becoming a citizen, that and achieving a level of proficiency in the appropriate language.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

Post by Seleucus »

Dubious wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:54 amHistory is flux; its trajectories a mystery by any human calculation which, more often than not, resolves itself into the unexpected.
I've argued at length in the "Race versus culture" thread the opposite.

Searching for Timur Kuran or Fredrik Barth will take you to those posts if you care,

search.php?keywords=kuran

search.php?keywords=barth

In brief, both see ethnicities as bundles that are highly resistant to change. Cultural cores therefore remain quite sable over thousands and even tens of thousands of years.

The implication is that Mexicans and Muslims are not integrating not because of any failure of governmental policies, instead these peoples are doing exactly what is historically normative: sticking to their identities over vast spans of time.
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Seleucus
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Re: Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

Post by Seleucus »

Arising_uk wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:30 pm
The bar has to be set very high though...
I don't think there has to be a bar at all, just a clear set of rights, duties and benefits that accrue from becoming a citizen, that and achieving a level of proficiency in the appropriate language.
Identity is too deep and mysterious for citizenship to be allowed to be a matter of a test or a criteria of proficiency or duties. The rite must be a terrifying and occluded ritual, in the dark, involving the sublime, ecstasy, blood and pain. Imagine the experience of Mohawk kidnapped an impressed into Iroquois society, a White woman captured by Moors on the seas or a woman who is traded as a wife into a distant tribe, grok the emotions these people go through as their whole personal identity and who they are metamorphizes.
Last edited by Seleucus on Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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