Race versus culture

[Arising_uk]

England is for White people. ...

Not according to the English Defense Force it isn't, it's for anyone who wishes to be part of the culture.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with a minority of minorities. It is well known that the centers of great civilizations as in Rome or Athens attract many. ...

'Attract' seems a stretch given that it was conquest and slavery that brought them.

The important point here is that the West is the best, if it is allowed to be overrun by inferior cultures it will become authoritarian, filthy, polluted, corrupt, and immoral, ...

? From the point of view of the lower white orders it's been this way long before any immigrants appeared.

if overrun by 3rd World people, the West will become 3rd World itself.

Depends if you are a racialist or a culturalist I'd have thought. As the latter will try to have a society where integration is possible.

Let Orientals have their countries, let Africans have theirs. They certainly put up a great struggle to keep Whites out of their countries, and likewise, us Whites, we also want our countries that are the eternal homelands of our peoples. ...

Where do you live at present?

According to you I'd have thought your white 'eternal homeland' would be somewhere in India or the ME then, you're welcome to it.

Being a polyglot, in a mixed-race marriage, who is a convert to Islam, and who has spent my whole working life living and working with foreigners and colored people, I'm not really that worried when someone calls me "racist, Islamophobic" and all that.

You're going to find it difficult to have a homeland then.

[Arising_uk]

...
Boaz wrote a whole fat book on it, Race, language and culture,
...

Doesn't seem to be to much on language and religion there?

Honestly this is a vast and deep topic that would be hard to answer briefly. The connection between Arabic and Islam is a pretty strong one even among Muslims who don't speak it, Arabic was the language Gabriel spoke to Muhammad in and generally it is believed that Islamic jargon can really only be understood in Arabic. ...

'Jargon'? Are you sure you're a Muslim convert?

Christians have a similar view when it comes to reading the Bible in the "original" Greek or what have you. ...

I'd have Aramaic and Hebrew.

Greek and Latin and generally Indo-European languages are interwoven into the religion and world view of Europeans, I'm reading last night in Anthony's The Horse, the Wheel and Language how grammatical structures in PIE language that persist influence Western thinking, ...

Given that I think that 'thinking' is 'thoughting' using language I'm not surprised.

The mind is like a radio receiver so we tend to think that race and culture are relatively interchangeable, you can play European music on a Japanese radio. While that might be true, most acorns don't fall too far from the tree and at our time in history today, race and culture and and language and religion are closely co-mingled. ...

Except that in your religion race is not an issue surely?

Also, note the point of Evola or Renan above that incongruity between race and religion are possible if rare. ...

And yet the history of Jewish theism says differently?

There will also be those who see race, religion, culture and language as cybernetic and symbiotic entities, race evolves within its cultural group and vice versa. ...

I'd have thought culture is a mix of race, religion and language? Plus a chunk of custom and geography.

This is a big big topic that one could write thousands of pages on...

Apparently so, so it's always worth looking at the context of why someone is writing about it.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

'Seleucus' is only trying to yank everyone's chain.

[Greta]

This is a big big topic that one could write thousands of pages on...

Maybe to you and others for whom race is important.

This phenomena of living among other races and become more racist seems to be quite common, I notice a video on it here,

https://youtu.be/eRATeUEBWJQ

Where there are some racist touchy points between my wife and I are with Jews and Chinese. I'm a Zionist. My wife however is more anti-Semitic.

I personally don't much care for race, and I'd like to care less than I do. It's ultimately about individuals ... X is nice, Y is not, Z is a clown, A is nuts, B is hilarious, C is hard to get a handle on, D is madly conservative, E drinks a lot etc etc.

All races, and in fact all social species, have their bullies, small fry, kingmakers, facilitators, the quick, the slow, the complex, the simple and the like. Then again, one could look at entire cultures and see bullies, small fry, kingmakers etc. It is a fractal dynamic. Somewhat interesting but nothing I'd want to be embroiled in, and I'd certainly not want to disparage an entire race, culture or whatever based on stereotypes, which does a dishonour to people's individuality.

[thedoc]

The cause of not throwing chips in with the human race is fear.

That is certainly one factor. Sorry for this, but sometimes a song says it better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnY-Ft7F9eo

I applaud your post, thedoc, and am envious of the time you have to track down a relevant youtube clip.

I would have it that one must be taught to fear and to hate, or one must be taught not to. The former supports the Nurture argument; the latter, the Nature argument.

Another thought, stupidity very likely plays a role in the practice of hatred as well. Yet a stupid individual would be unable to learn unacceptable behaviors as well as unable to be taught not to engage in such behaviors. Given that, I would propose that the source of fear and hatred is innate.

On further inspection though, it would seem to me that even the stupidest of human beings is capable of response to experience. If so, experiences can inform responses of fear and hatred. Life experiences can teach even the most stupid among us to fear and to hate.

I suppose it must be a case of Nature + Nurture, rather than Nature v. Nurture.

It didn't really take very long, I knew the movie and that is one of my favorite songs from that movie,especially that particular version.
BTW, I'm retired and the grandchildren I was caring for are now in school so I have the extra time, but I'm not entirely free, today I need to go and be at the house when they get off the bus.

I agree with the rest of your post and mostly the debate is about whether nature or nurture is the most influential in a persons life, certainly intelligence is a factor.

[thedoc]

'Seleucus' is only trying to yank everyone's chain.

Seems to be working.

[Londoner]

'Seleucus' is only trying to yank everyone's chain.

If that was all you would think he would occasionally change the record.

[Seleucus]

Cherry picking. My intent was irony. 'En masse'. Why would you expect an indigenous people to instantly adapt to, and understand, a completely alien culture? That hardly makes them inferior. What would you do?

We've discussed this more than once so I assume you know my view is that culture is probably sufficient to explain such effects, no need to appeal to genetics. As far as inferiority goes, there seem to be inferior cultures, Gypsy is one, and African American is another. Cultures can get bogged down with bad habits.

[Seleucus]

It's a cosa nostra thing.

I agree. A culture group or a race are gangs.

Tribalism, now. Are you yourself tribal, or universal, Seleucus? Your preference for what you call "race" and Europeans in particular begins to sound tribal.

I'm tribalist. That's why I say it isn't exactly unfair if a Muslim doesn't want to hire anyone non-Muslims to work in their bakery. Since it isn't my tribe, I'll object, but certainly I won't hire Muslims to my organization either, obviously I screen the CVs for Muslim names and hijabs in the photos.

[Seleucus]

it never can be done - because there are no races.

...

First, there is no race; 'Indians'.

Second, supposing you could define the Indian race,

For those of use who use these words like "race", in India you have Dravidians in the south. They are the dark short ones. In the north you have Aryans who are tall and fairer and have pointy noses, they migrated into the region sometime after 3500 BC according to anthropologists and linguists like Anthony and Mallory who are the current reigning experts on things Indo-European. And, up in the north-east you actually have Negritos, this was a wave of black people who also inhabit the Andaman Islands and are largely an uncontacted tribe, and they can also be found in the interior of Malaysia. By haplogroup, the Negritos are related to the Capoids/San/Bushmen/Pygmies however you want to call them. That's just the facts, not really sure how it could be denied?

[Seleucus]

Race certainly exists and it is something worth having pride in. The product of millions of years of beautiful and sublime life and struggle. It is worth understanding the origins and history or your race be you White, Austronesian, Korean, Arab or what have you. There are a lot of problems comparing languages and genetic systems, languages easily co-mingle but dogs and zebras do not blend. ...

Which shows that humans are one species then?

Humans are one species, agree.

Just as we can speak or Arabic or English or Korean, much the same we can speak of White, Oriental and Semitic races. ...

'Semitic' race? You do like to slip stuff in don't you.[/quote]
Yep, they speak Semitic languages and most likely European peoples are a branch off of the Semitic race as can be established either linguistically since both Indo-Europeans and also Semitic languages, as well as Caucasian languages use grammatical gender, so we can infer they are closely related, or we can just look at them and see their narrow heads and pointy noses, or we can look at haplogroup which cinches it.

There certainly is some fuzziness and matters of power in how the definitions are created, but just as sure as you can understand what I'm typing, no one will mistake me for a Capoid or a Negrito.

For sure but is Obama not white then?[/quote]
That's a good example of the politics involved. He's usually called Black of course.

[Seleucus]

Seleucus wrote:

I appreciate being among my people. I appreciate being among people I can understand, who share common values and dreams. The land, the culture and the people are a symbiotic entity. Everyone refugee, everyone in exile, everyone stationed with the military or working abroad understands this at a very bodily and emotional level.

We, our Scottish family, were a forces family, in the 60's. We often met foreign nationals, common country people in agricultural Andalucia, who were all welcoming and nice to be with. This, to the extent that the newspaper from home was so full of crime and unrest that I almost dreaded going home to Britain. Not just the people I met but also the terrain and vegetation of Andalucia felt like home.

I think that something must be loading you with a general and unreasoning prejudice against foreigners, Seleucus.I think you have just been unfortunate in the foreigners whom you have met.

By the way, I enjoy your large lexicon of 'racial' terms.

More likely its you who has become twisted if you don't love your kinfolk:

"By the rivers of Babylon, we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion." Pslam 137

"... You shall leave everything you love most:
this is the arrow that the bow of exile
shoots first. You are to know the bitter taste
of others' bread, how salty it is, and know
how hard a path it is for one who goes
ascending and descending others' stairs ..." Dante, Paradiso, XVII 55–60

[Arising_uk]

Selecucs,
When you said a "convert to Islam" did you mean you?

If not are you lying to her that you will convert or is she colluding?

[Arising_uk]

Yep, they speak Semitic languages and most likely European peoples are a branch off of the Semitic race as can be established either linguistically since both Indo-Europeans and also Semitic languages, as well as Caucasian languages use grammatical gender, so we can infer they are closely related, or we can just look at them and see their narrow heads and pointy noses, or we can look at haplogroup which cinches it. ...

A shared language doesn't make a race.

[Seleucus]

'Attract' seems a stretch given that it was conquest and slavery that brought them.

The 248,000 people who immigrated into the UK in 2016 were brought by conquest and slavery? Or do you mean Aristotle moved to the Macedonian court because he was conquered and enslaved? What, no he wasn't? It was "brain drain".

The important point here is that the West is the best, if it is allowed to be overrun by inferior cultures it will become authoritarian, filthy, polluted, corrupt, and immoral, ...

? From the point of view of the lower white orders it's been this way long before any immigrants appeared.

Oh? Remind me, what is the life expectancy of men in the UK, and remind me of the life expectancy of men in Indonesia? Remind me of the rate of typhoid? Remind me of the amount of rubbish in the streets and on the beaches...? Remind me of the perceived corruption index...? Remind me of the average traffic speed at rush hour in the capital...? Remind me of the state of the mass transport system in the capital city -- or if there is one at all...?

if overrun by 3rd World people, the West will become 3rd World itself.

Depends if you are a racialist or a culturalist I'd have thought. As the latter will try to have a society where integration is possible.

Since race and culture are still pretty tight in 2017 it makes only a slight difference between the one and the other position.

Being a polyglot, in a mixed-race marriage, who is a convert to Islam, and who has spent my whole working life living and working with foreigners and colored people, I'm not really that worried when someone calls me "racist, Islamophobic" and all that.

You're going to find it difficult to have a homeland then.

This is a great question that would unfortunately involve too much personal information to answer. An interesting one because it touches a few topics that intersect with this discussion. To some degree we have a choice of what race and culture we desire to identify with. If my grandparents come from 4 different countries, which one do I consider my ethnic and racial identity and why? And secondly, the question of (deleuzoguattarian) territorialization, how do we come to call some place home? Even a place where we have never in our lives been too? Even a place where we would probably be considered utter foreigners? How does that happen? I think it's by coming to know the names of the birds and the plants, by coming to know the myths of the land and the people. Touch the earth and the soil and have it under our nails, drink the water, eat the produce of the land...