Race versus culture

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Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:12 pm

Dorothea wrote:
As to the effectiveness of protesting about cleric and govt behaviour in Pakistan et al - any action, however small, is better then none, and it would also have an educational effect on Muslim youth in the UK if their elders demonstrated displeasure with supremacist intolerance.
Maybe they do so. There are well regulated channels for such protests. In my limited experience those who protest against human rights abuses are better-educated. By "better-educated" I mean educated so as not to be stultifyingly compliant for the sake of solidarity with the traditional group. In other words, most of the Muslims whom I see around are dressed as traditional Asian villagers would dress and look as if they are very docile people.
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that better educated Muslims challenge human rights abuses equally as much as Christians, Humanists, and others.

Those 'Asians' who have ganged up on vulnerable white children are not so much Muslims as they are under-educated criminals who are as much alienated from family control as from control by mosque authority.It's not Islam that causes that criminality and alienation but other social factors. Islam is authoritarian and demands certain behaviours of which criminality is not one. Rather ask why Asian criminals ceased to observe Islam.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:10 pm

Seleucus wrote:...
I just watched this talk, Oswald Spengler, The decline of the West and Islamic State, https://youtu.be/i9pjlgMbLIY
How do you know what he says is true if you haven't read Spengler?
Clearly some points I've made are Spenglarian: European Christianity as fundamentally European despite its apparent origins in the Middle East, ...
Except he wouldn't really recognise this 'European' thing.
a cleavage between the old Heroic culture and the new modern culture of the West, ...
He wouldn't see it as a 'cleveage'.
or the spread of Islam into a space where a common Semitic culture already existed. ...
He thinks the Semites and the Islamicists are essentially the same thing.
On-the-other-hand, Spengler would have it that the Heroic culture has already come and gone so Donald Trump can't be a true hero as he seems to be?
He doesn't think we are or were the 'Heroic' culture.

Trump is a chancer but personally I think him very apposite for the culture that is appearing.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 pm

dorothea wrote:For the topic of ethics you seem to have some difficulty, unless your remarks are merely persiflagery. I don't know what your country is, but people do not wear what they like in autocratic/theocratic countries (in Saud even hairstyles have been proscribed, though that's trivial compared to rape not being a crime there). ...
What do I care about what people do in their own countries?
It is disrespectful of western values to seem to identify with oppressive regimes through aping their dress. (The 1937 law against such behaviour, used to stop Moseley's marches, is not applied, but should be)
But they aren't are they, they are following a form of their religion or at least a few of them are.
As to the effectiveness of protesting about cleric and govt behaviour in Pakistan et al - any action, however small, is better then none, and it would also have an educational effect on Muslim youth in the UK if their elders demonstrated displeasure with supremacist intolerance. ...
What's it to do with us what others do in their countries?
(There's a special issue in the UK as Labour depend on a couple of million Muslim votes - hence easy-going attitudes to Jew-hate, and indulgence towards the intransigent Palestinians and the terrorist thugs they have elected.) ...
As opposed to the Zionist thugs?

I've always thought there was a problem with the adoption of the idea of multiculturalism from the Yank as it stifled conversation about what it was to be British, or English if you like, back in the 80's.
There's also the responsibility we have under the UN's R2P surely.
Then we should be applying this to the Zionists as well should we not?

dorothea
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by dorothea » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:24 am

I'm new to this forum so not sure how to reply to individual comments. So - to Belinda - you're right about criminals rather than believers - but there is the uncomfortable fact that mistreatment of females, especially unbelievers, is sanctioned in Islam - also violence to kuffers ('cut off their finger tips' etc). When Christians believed the bible was the literal word of God (as Muslims do of the Koran) slavers used to find justification in it, though I'm not sure where - certainly not the NT. Women don't have souls in Islam, unless there's been a change recently. I used to teach a lot of overseas students, even organising courses for Muslim victims of brother Muslims in the middle east and we got on fine as you might expect. They dressed western as it happens and only a few of the women wore even a hijab. However, although those who had been abused by Iraqis and Palestinians, despised them as a whole but thought one day things would be better, they were all implacably opposed to the existence of Israel (which had done them no harm and would have given them more freedom and rights had they lived there). I've also been involved in futile efforts to make links between my institution and local Imams - they tried to abuse the position by soliciting finance for a 'charity' helping 'education' in Kashmir. When I probed them about the well-known terrorist activity there, the door slammed and that was that. As for education - my reading of ISIS speeches was that the leaders were not lacking it, what they lacked was compassion and tolerance.
To Arising: There's no comparison between Zionists (as you pejoratively term them) and Hamas. There have been a dozen peace efforts, all rejected by the arabs - who can forget the spectacular public failure of 2000 with Clinton who unsuccessfully tried to stop the Israeli's from offering more than had been asked? However, as a life-long Labour member, I have been banned from LabourList for raising this point, so let's have some philosophy instead. I like Locke's reason for tolerance - that knowledge of even the material world is uncertain; Burke's observation that our knowledge of human affairs is 'a woven web of guesses); and Schopenhauer's view that the supreme virtues are compassion and justice. Those virtues are fine but they have to be two-way or they amount to pacifism, and we all know where that leads, and recognise a mass grave when we see one.

Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:19 am

dorothea wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:24 am
Women don't have souls in Islam, unless there's been a change recently.
When you read a statement like that one completely loses faith in anything else you might say.

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:23 am

Dorothea wrote:
I've also been involved in futile efforts to make links between my institution and local Imams - they tried to abuse the position by soliciting finance for a 'charity' helping 'education' in Kashmir. When I probed them about the well-known terrorist activity there, the door slammed and that was that. As for education - my reading of ISIS speeches was that t
i hope that you will not be discouraged in your bridge-building efforts. As educated and an atheist you are in a stronger position than local imams. Not a stronger bargaining position but more able to rise above petty concerns, although I am puzzled by why you put startle marks around 'education' and 'charity'.

(PS I note that Londoner objects to your opinion that "women don't have souls in Islam". I wouldn't know. You need to back up assertions like that with evidence.What I do understand is that Muhammad improved the social status of Arab women, and he himself was the trusted employee of a rich woman.)


ISIS is not Islam and has been condemned by all who are not ISIS.ISIS is a criminal organisation and its tenuous connection with Islam is not welcome to Muslims.
I am impressed by your experience but you need to be less subjective and study academically respected facts and figures. I like your references to philosophers who commented wisely upon the theme of historical truth and accuracy; we must be practical and chose what is the most probable interpretation of man's past.

dorothea
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by dorothea » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 pm

Londoner - some Islamic sects (Shia related?) have taught or implied soulless females - and they all seem to have followed Aristotle's view that ensoulment is at 40 days, and a male issue not female, the woman being merely the container as it were. The way women and girls are treated in Islam and the reward of fresh virgins every day in paradise for warriors lends support to the no-soul female idea. I accept that it's not a certain doctrine but the sort of behaviour we are all familiar with has lent it support, and it is a widespread assumption in literature. (I may be wrong, but I think even Schopenhauer notes it in one of his essays - and no philosopher was more widely read than he.)

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:12 pm

dorothea wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 pm
Londoner - some Islamic sects (Shia related?) have taught or implied soulless females - and they all seem to have followed Aristotle's view that ensoulment is at 40 days, and a male issue not female, the woman being merely the container as it were. The way women and girls are treated in Islam and the reward of fresh virgins every day in paradise for warriors lends support to the no-soul female idea. I accept that it's not a certain doctrine but the sort of behaviour we are all familiar with has lent it support, and it is a widespread assumption in literature. (I may be wrong, but I think even Schopenhauer notes it in one of his essays - and no philosopher was more widely read than he.)
Is male supremacy common to all or most societies and cultures? By "male supremacy" I mean that the men do the prime important work of defence and active aggression while the women toil at growing food, home based chores, and child bearing. It would follow that the best of the produce is allocated to the defenders without whom the other necessities of life matter little. The religious This state of affairs would exist only when scarcity, perceived scarcity, and aggressive threats from outside predominate in group conscious awareness.

Minutiae such as the popular belief about virgins in Paradise, and more in all religions, are invented for the purpose of legitimating male superiority. Now that women are as able in defence as men we see the rise of feminism which is good for the modern technological society.

dorothea
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by dorothea » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:36 pm

Hmmm - the equality for women largely goes one way. Women can try for traditional male jobs like fighting, flying and bossing people about, but where are the men proudly becoming home makers, or even nurses and teachers? You could say that some this one-way equality re-emphasises the higher status of men and man-work, so it's condescension not equality - equality in the sense that things many women like to do, looking after their children and so on, have equal status. (I've just seen a news item about a couple who pay someone £50 and hour to toilet train their toddler - the parents being 'too busy'. That is surely a scale of priorities that should not be taken for granted?)

Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:45 pm

dorothea wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 pm
Londoner - some Islamic sects (Shia related?) have taught or implied soulless females - and they all seem to have followed Aristotle's view that ensoulment is at 40 days, and a male issue not female, the woman being merely the container as it were. The way women and girls are treated in Islam and the reward of fresh virgins every day in paradise for warriors lends support to the no-soul female idea. I accept that it's not a certain doctrine but the sort of behaviour we are all familiar with has lent it support, and it is a widespread assumption in literature. (I may be wrong, but I think even Schopenhauer notes it in one of his essays - and no philosopher was more widely read than he.)
I think you know your claim is iffy, that is why you qualified it with 'unless there's been a change recently' and now 'taught or implied'.

Similarly you write 'some Islamic sects (Shia related?)'. If you know for a fact some sects are making this claim, they you will be able to say which they are. If you don't know, then you should not assert it as fact.

Your reference to ensoulment is designed to further cloud the issue. For Aristotle and others this occurs to the fetus. Suggesting that in its early stage a fetus has no soul is a lot different from your claim 'Women don't have souls in Islam'

'I accept that it's not a certain doctrine but the sort of behaviour we are all familiar with has lent it support,...' What that means is that because 'we' know what sort of people Muslims are it doesn't matter if we make stuff up in support of that view. You are, perhaps, a fan of the U.S.President.

dorothea
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by dorothea » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:08 pm

Dear friend - what has brought you to this acrimony in your replies. You do not know what my intentions were, no one knows other minds, and many are not sure of their own, and I have never tried to obfuscate any issue. Aristotle as you well know had a disvaluing view of women - and for him their ensoulment took place at 80 days if I remember, later than boy foetuses anyway. (I don't recall from reading some of) the Koran and Bukhari that there is mention of ensoulment for girls, only for boys. I have had more to do with Muslims than most people - overseas groups even entertained in my house. It is difficult to discuss their religion with them I have found, other than at a trivial level. And you must have noticed in the media how deferential people are when those speaking on their behalf make outrageous and untrue claims about discrimination. Perhaps what we need is some specialist advice. Socrates showed us in his annoying way that what we think we know we don't. I'm happy to accept that and drop this topic now.

Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:35 pm

dorothea wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:08 pm
Dear friend - what has brought you to this acrimony in your replies. You do not know what my intentions were, no one knows other minds, and many are not sure of their own, and I have never tried to obfuscate any issue. Aristotle as you well know had a disvaluing view of women - and for him their ensoulment took place at 80 days if I remember, later than boy foetuses anyway. (I don't recall from reading some of) the Koran and Bukhari that there is mention of ensoulment for girls, only for boys. I have had more to do with Muslims than most people - overseas groups even entertained in my house. It is difficult to discuss their religion with them I have found, other than at a trivial level. And you must have noticed in the media how deferential people are when those speaking on their behalf make outrageous and untrue claims about discrimination. Perhaps what we need is some specialist advice. Socrates showed us in his annoying way that what we think we know we don't. I'm happy to accept that and drop this topic now.
What has all this stuff about Aristotle got to do with your claim about 'some Islamic sects'?

You say you have found it difficult to discuss religion with Muslims on other than a trivial level, yet you feel empowered to pronounce about the theology of particular sects.
And you must have noticed in the media how deferential people are when those speaking on their behalf make outrageous and untrue claims about discrimination.
In this case, I think you are the one who has made an outrageous and untrue claim. If you do not know that 'Women don't have souls in Islam' you should not have said it.

Suppose I had made a similar assertion about Jews? Or black people? Or homosexuals? Or women? If something is untrue about any group then we all have a duty to call it out. We are not free to create 'alternative facts' to suit our own prejudices.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:56 pm

dorothea wrote:...
To Arising: There's no comparison between Zionists (as you pejoratively term them) and Hamas. ....
Who's using it pejoratively, is that not what it's all about? There is a comparison as both were proscribed as terrorists and acted as such.
There have been a dozen peace efforts, all rejected by the arabs - who can forget the spectacular public failure of 2000 with Clinton who unsuccessfully tried to stop the Israeli's from offering more than had been asked? ...
So they offered them more than a two-state solution did they? I hadn't heard that.
However, as a life-long Labour member, I have been banned from LabourList for raising this point, so let's have some philosophy instead. ...
Well labourList is not the party, have you been banned from the party for raising this issue?

I don't disagree that there is a nasty strain of anti-Israelism raising its head in the LP but then the Trots are back and taking over so I expect all sorts to come out of the woodwork.
I like Locke's reason for tolerance - that knowledge of even the material world is uncertain; Burke's observation that our knowledge of human affairs is 'a woven web of guesses); and Schopenhauer's view that the supreme virtues are compassion and justice. Those virtues are fine but they have to be two-way or they amount to pacifism, and we all know where that leads, and recognise a mass grave when we see one.
And yet you can't see an injustice when it stares you in the face?

dorothea
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by dorothea » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Londoner and Arising - this is my last comment on this matter. Philosophical and ethical content is zero and this kind of futile argument leads nowhere. More than 50 states, Muslim ruled, have declared war on western values, values of equality and tolerance which are absolutely superior to anything they have to offer, and all of the Muslims killed on a daily basis are the victims of Muslim sectarian hate. (Anyone who really cares about humanity would be directing their attention elsewhere: for example, do you know what has happened to 40,000 Kurds living in a Turkish suburb that was flattened by Turkish tanks and artillery a while back? Have you seen the media fuss? No. There hasn't been one. Apparently the BBC et al think the harmless buffoon of a US president is the only threat to civilisation.) I've worked face to face with survivors of these atrocities and perhaps that's the chasmic gulf between us. When you've sat side by side with people whose families and children have been destroyed in front of their eyes by bestial soldiers, and felt the pure evil of it, you don't have much patience with apologists for the supremacist ideology that is at the root of it. Good bye. I hope you'll see the light.

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:36 pm

dorothea wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:36 pm
Hmmm - the equality for women largely goes one way. Women can try for traditional male jobs like fighting, flying and bossing people about, but where are the men proudly becoming home makers, or even nurses and teachers? You could say that some this one-way equality re-emphasises the higher status of men and man-work, so it's condescension not equality - equality in the sense that things many women like to do, looking after their children and so on, have equal status. (I've just seen a news item about a couple who pay someone £50 and hour to toilet train their toddler - the parents being 'too busy'. That is surely a scale of priorities that should not be taken for granted?)
Dorothea, I think that low status jobs will always be low status whichever sex does them. Child care and sick care are never going to be as high status as bossing people around, and top defense jobs. Of course we agree that child care is important more so than killing people and bossing them around, but we don't make the rules.
Regarding which side kills more people and causes more suffering you should study the numbers, from an impartial source.With your passion and energy this should not be too much for you to do.

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