Race versus culture

[Seleucus]

The existence of Ligers simply demonstrates that Lions and Tigers are the same species since by definition different species cannot produce viable offspring, but a liger is sometimes fertil.

The definition of species isn't that simple:

https://www.quora.com/How-can-tigers-an ... nt-species

And of course there are no problems of fertility at all when humans breed; both their male and female children will be fertile.

In defense of Londoner, don't forget that his original point was sort of Platonic: that dog breeds, which are probably somewhat analogous to races, are not timeless and eternal entities, but in flux, and therefore are not real. While that is no doubt true, it doens't change the fact that I like Labradors, and do not like Pugs at all.

[Londoner]

In defense of Londoner, don't forget that his original point was sort of Platonic: that dog breeds, which are probably somewhat analogous to races, are not timeless and eternal entities, but in flux, and therefore are not real.

No, it is nothing to do with Platonic forms.

You made the mysterious comment:

So the fact of ligers means that lions and tigers never really existed?

I guessed that you were probably trying to say something about speciation and human 'races'. But I really don't know.

So do I gather that you now accept that the human race is a single and very homogeneous species? That it is not the case that there once used to be different 'races' like 'orientals' and 'Aryans' that they are now becoming mixed-up and 'mongrel-ised'? Good!

While that is no doubt true, it doens't change the fact that I like Labradors, and do not like Pugs at all.

Absolutely. That is no doubt a fact about you; nobody doubts you have likes and dislikes. What they are disputing is your claim that these are based on science, or reason.

[Arising_uk]

...
Nothing is gained by bringing millions of Africans and Muslims into our countries.

But they are not your country are they? And given what you say of your background you'd be viewed as a non-white Muslim foreigner.

[Seleucus]

So do I gather that you now accept that the human race is a single and very homogeneous species? That it is not the case that there once used to be different 'races' like 'orientals' and 'Aryans' that they are now becoming mixed-up and 'mongrel-ised'? Good!

So you think it would be somehow wrong to use the words Labrador or Pug?

[Seleucus]

...
Nothing is gained by bringing millions of Africans and Muslims into our countries.

But they are not your country are they? And given what you say of your background you'd be viewed as a non-white Muslim foreigner.

You're detective work is infected with bias? I have one English grandparent, one Scottish, one Russian, and one Greek. That's pretty White!

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Oh wow. ''Counter-enlightenment'' says it all really.

If I'm not mistaken, the phrase "counter-enlightenment" was coined by Isaiah Berlin, who had a negative view of the movement, so ought possibly to be used with a grain of salt as they say.

Didn't you say you are Greek? A lot of people can't stand Greeks. Apparently Greek immigrants have awful taste and tacky, vulgar homes (or so I've heard), and fat, spoilt rotten children.

[Seleucus]

Oh wow. ''Counter-enlightenment'' says it all really.

If I'm not mistaken, the phrase "counter-enlightenment" was coined by Isaiah Berlin, who had a negative view of the movement, so ought possibly to be used with a grain of salt as they say.

Didn't you say you are Greek? A lot of people can't stand Greeks. Apparently Greek immigrants have awful taste and tacky, vulgar homes (or so I've heard), and fat, spoilt rotten children.

My grandmother is Greek. So I can draw on that identity. And she is fat, though I am not. Just about to start my exercise routine right now....

[vegetariantaxidermy]

If I'm not mistaken, the phrase "counter-enlightenment" was coined by Isaiah Berlin, who had a negative view of the movement, so ought possibly to be used with a grain of salt as they say.

Didn't you say you are Greek? A lot of people can't stand Greeks. Apparently Greek immigrants have awful taste and tacky, vulgar homes (or so I've heard), and fat, spoilt rotten children.

My grandmother is Greek. And she is fat, though I am an Adonis.

And spoilt you rotten no doubt.

[Seleucus]

Didn't you say you are Greek? A lot of people can't stand Greeks. Apparently Greek immigrants have awful taste and tacky, vulgar homes (or so I've heard), and fat, spoilt rotten children.

My grandmother is Greek. So I can draw on that identity. And she is fat, though I am not. Just about to start my exercise routine right now....

And spoilt you rotten no doubt.

She was probably about typical for a grandmother. Her and my grandfather were not wealthy so they weren't in much of a position to be spoiling anyone. By the time I was born they were already pensioners.

[Londoner]

So you think it would be somehow wrong to use the words Labrador or Pug?

It could be. For example if we failed to understand that they were both dogs.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

...
Nothing is gained by bringing millions of Africans and Muslims into our countries.

But they are not your country are they? And given what you say of your background you'd be viewed as a non-white Muslim foreigner.

You're detective work is infected with bias? I have one English grandparent, one Scottish, one Russian, and one Greek. That's pretty White!

So how did you end up in a muslim country complaining about the noise of the call to prayer?

[Seleucus]

So you think it would be somehow wrong to use the words Labrador or Pug?

It could be. For example if we failed to understand that they were both dogs.

I can say quite confidently that I am well aware that Slavs, Koreans, Eskimos and Aborigines are all humans. So guess we can agree, that race, just like Golden Retrievers, exists.

[Seleucus]

Oh wow. ''Counter-enlightenment'' says it all really.

Honestly, this rightism stuff is just as new to me as it may be to you.

I'd given up on politics and even humanity. But then I heard about Trump. And then he actually won. And then there was Brexit. And then Geert Wilders got a big chunk of the Dutch parliament, and then Alternative for Deutschland got a chunk of the German parliament. And now Sebastian Kurz has won in Austria.

It's like there's hope again.

Probably just like a lot of people, I was completely alienated and deterritorialized. But now when I have a little time after work, and family duties are taken care of, and exercise and cooking and everything else is done, I have a little free time maybe in the evenings or in the mornings to read something or watch a lecture, and start to understand my racial history, my culture, my languages, and the spiritual heritage of my people.

[Londoner]

I can say quite confidently that I am well aware that Slavs, Koreans, Eskimos and Aborigines are all humans. So guess we can agree, that race, just like Golden Retrievers, exists.

So, having got rid of all the pseudo-scientific stuff, we can now refine further our understanding of what you mean by 'race'.

Is it cultural? Such that a black person can become a Slav if they conform to the cultural baggage that goes with being a Slav (and that you have a check list of what that cultural baggage is)?

Or is it about appearance? Is 'race' determined by what you agree are superficial features, like the shade of somebody's skin? So that every person with a sufficiently dark skin, (judged against some sort of colour chart), belongs to the same 'race', irrespective of their culture?

[Arising_uk]

]You're detective work is infected with bias? I have one English grandparent, one Scottish, one Russian, and one Greek. That's pretty White!

Fair point, and what a mix of all the worst but you can lie about the Greek and big up the English then but the Muslim bit's going to be a bit harder.