Race versus culture

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Arising_uk wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:49 pm
Seleucus wrote:At some point the people who are supporting mass (im)migration are going to need to be held morally and at some level even legally responsible when concerts of little girls are blown to shreds and whole festivals of children are run down by trucks.
Does that mean that the people who killed a half a million odd kids in the ME are also going to be held responsible too?
Nice pivot. Keep your head deep in the sand.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:39 pm Yes, they very powerfully are. Mainland haplogroup 02s are Sinic speaking Theravada Buddhists; ....
Do you know what a haplogroup is? It is a single neuceotide mutation on one chromosome. It will not cause the possessor to speak a particular language.
It is as daft as suggesting that because car number plates in Botswana begin with the letter B this must somehow be 'linked' the the fact that Botswanans are Christians.

You do not even have a correlation. First, O2 haploids are traced by a mutation of the Y chromosome, so you need to explain why females in this region also speak that language. Nor is your basic claim true; some of this group are Japanese, some are Indians, as are about half of Chinese males. They do not speak the same language or have the same religion.

The connection you are trying to make is absurd in principle, and the facts you quote are wrong. I am getting bored with this.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk »

Seleucus wrote:Offensive

The position that race doesn't exist or doesn't matter is a highly offensive and insulting thing to say. Race isn't only important to the White supremacist boogeyman. Black student associations, Pan Slavism, and the Pan Arab movement are all essentially racial movements. ...
They are and so far have all failed, why would that be?
Denying people their racial identity is tantamount to intellectual genocide.
What do you mean by a 'racial identity', that peoples skin colour differ? You appear to ignore that if it is about skin-colour then the brown race should be ruling the world.
What it means to be Chinese was a central question throughout Chinese history and drawing on racial Chineseness gave the people the purpose and strength to evict the Mongols ...
When did they do this?
and also the Portuguese from Taiwan. ...
Not exactly hard.
There is absolutely no shame in having a sense of racial identity and pride, on the contrary. ...
What is it you are proud about?
Grey

A world without race would be a very monotonous and meaningless place. Race is a deep part of who all of us is. The Javanese have occupied their island for almost six-thousand years, some anthropologist are reasonably beginning to believe the Aborigines have dwelt in Australia for towards one hundred millennia, and we know that the fair hair of Europeans is at least partly genetically attributable to the Neanderthals. Race is something we can all look at with curiosity and amazement, it contains links to the most ancient mysteries of the origins of our societies and ourselves.
What ancient mysteries?
Leveled

Everyone in the world has a basic idea of race. Even a child understands the basic premise. We easily speak of White and Black and Oriental and Nordic and Mediterranean and Japanese and so on. ...
Since when have Jap or Nordics or Mediterraneans been races? What do you mean by race?
These races are entities that have stood for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years. ...
But not in the sense of being a united idea?
Meanwhile, there is also a critique of essentialism. ...
What are these traits that apply to races then?
The same post-modern critique can be leveled against any of a number or categorizations. We could say that adult and child are fictions and that puberty is a mult-stage proces, it begins at a different age for everyone, in fact human development is a life long process of change, and moreover some people never even enter puberty at all. ...
Who never enters puberty? We could not easily say this as there are clear changes associated with puberty in males and females and they all occur at roughly the same time.
We could say there is no such thing as man or woman or sex ...
No we couldn't
nor gender and cite people like Judy Buttler and Gail Rubin and Guy Hocquenghem. ...
Well there's an argument that 'gender' is a socially defined set of categories and since those categories have changed over time and cultures it seems a fair point.
We could probably attack the idea of salads, a construct of chavanistic chefs who cannot think outside Escoffier and then we would rebut by discussing the etymology of salads and the most ancient salt mines in Illyria and discuss cooked salads and so on. Simply both the essentialists and the post-modern critique are true at their level. ...
So which points of the post-modern critique do you agree with and which bits of essentialiosm do you agree with with respect to race and gender?
Dangerous

Taking the view that race doesn't exist or doesn't matter is a misguided and risky thing to do. ...
It is, the concept should be integrated into the politics of identity but not taken as the be all and end all of what having an identity means.
The Greek merchants who settled in Egypt thousands of years ago were still Greek when Alexander's armies arrived. ...
Since when were the Greeks a race, you mean they still spoke Greek?
The Chinese in South-East Asia are still Chinese thousands of years after the imperial dynasty refused to allow them to return home. ...
Why would you think a thousand years would be long enough to change evolutionary morphology? Were they still the same cultural Chinese as those still at home?
The Blacks in America are still Black after centuries, and the newly arriving Turks in Europe will still be Turks in a thousand years. ...
Since when are the Turks a race?

The Blacks in America seem very different form their counterparts in Africa? But see above for why you think a few hundred years would change things.
People love their races. ...
Then why do they keep killing and imprisoning each other?
And while it is possible that non-Whorfian shifts can happen and race, language, culture and religion can move independently of one another, what actually is happening is the Egyptians still resemble their forebearers in the Fayum mummy portarits, the Yazidi still practice Zoroastrianism, the Jews are still Jewish, and the Dravidians still refuse to speak Hindi and use Tamil. These characteristics developed in symbiotic and cybernetic ecosystems over thousands of years. ...
What do you mean by " cybernetic ecosystems"? All you seem to be pointing out is that culture and custom are fairly stable units.
Western people play sports, value religious freedom, women's rights, democratic government and environmentalism. In a thousand years from now, Chinese immigrants to North America and Middle-Eastern migrants into Europe are going to have the same authoritarian political views, ...
Then they'll fit very well with you far-right whingers then.
disrespect for women and disinterest in mountain biking they do now; if too many come into our homelands, our civilization is eventually going to be taken over and destroyed.
What do you mean 'our' civilization, as what you describe is the Liberal view of things and it is you and yours who wish to destroy such things.
Last edited by Arising_uk on Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk »

Seleucus wrote: Nice pivot. Keep your head deep in the sand.
Nice avoidance, are you not going to take responsibility for the actions of your white race?

Given you say you are a Muslim convert I think my head way above the parapet compared to yours not least because I was challenging, in person, the fundamentalist Muslims way back in the 80's.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Arising_uk wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:26 pm
Seleucus wrote: Nice pivot. Keep your head deep in the sand.
Nice avoidance, are you not going to take responsibility for the actions of your white race?
Yeah I am. Guess what, White people confronted fascism and colonialism and male rape culture. Yeah, let's see those responsible for these Middle Eastern wars prosecuted. So now can you be so brave as to say that blowing up little girls and running over children isn't very cool?
Given you say you are a Muslim convert
I converted since Islam prohibits apostasy and enforces miscegenation laws, so unless I wanted my wife to have to flee her county, or worse be kidnapped by her cousin and forced into marriage him, that was pretty much the only choice. The fact of having "Islam" on an ID document does not mean overmuch actually...
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Londoner wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:09 pm
Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:39 pm Yes, they very powerfully are. Mainland haplogroup 02s are Sinic speaking Theravada Buddhists; ....
Do you know what a haplogroup is? It is a single neuceotide mutation on one chromosome. It will not cause the possessor to speak a particular language.
It is as daft as suggesting that because car number plates in Botswana begin with the letter B this must somehow be 'linked' the the fact that Botswanans are Christians.

You do not even have a correlation. First, O2 haploids are traced by a mutation of the Y chromosome, so you need to explain why females in this region also speak that language. Nor is your basic claim true; some of this group are Japanese, some are Indians, as are about half of Chinese males. They do not speak the same language or have the same religion.

The connection you are trying to make is absurd in principle, and the facts you quote are wrong. I am getting bored with this.
I have never met a Korean speaking, Orthodox Christian, Tex-Mex Samoan... have you? The fact is that for whatever reason, most Botswanan licensed vehicles don't go too far from Botswana. And in the rare cases when they do, they still blare Botswana music on the radio!

Image
https://youtu.be/79N0vO5lg7I
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Arising_uk wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:22 pm
Seleucus wrote:Offensive

The position that race doesn't exist or doesn't matter is a highly offensive and insulting thing to say. Race isn't only important to the White supremacist boogeyman. Black student associations, Pan Slavism, and the Pan Arab movement are all essentially racial movements. ...
They are and so far have all failed, why would that be?
By in large they succeeded which is why we have so many ethno-linguistic nation states. :roll:
Denying people their racial identity is tantamount to intellectual genocide.
What do you mean by a 'racial identity'
White, Black, Eskimo, Asian, Korean... :roll:
What it means to be Chinese was a central question throughout Chinese history and drawing on racial Chineseness gave the people the purpose and strength to evict the Mongols ...
When did they do this?
Why don't you start with the wiki page and go out from there,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua%E2%80 ... istinction :roll:
What ancient mysteries?
How about were Egyptians Black? Were the Hyksos White? Who were the Tocharians? Who were the Huns? Did the Dorian invasion really happen? :roll:
Since when have Jap or Nordics or Mediterraneans been races? What do you mean by race?
It can mean lots of things. I could call myself European, or White, or Greek, or Western, or Indo-European, or Caucasian, or a WASP, or English, or British, or a Celt, or Germanic, and on and on... :roll:
Who never enters puberty?
People with Progeria Syndrome. :roll:
We could say there is no such thing as man or woman or sex ...
No we couldn't
And yet these philosophers/academics are saying exactly that: Judy Butler and Gail Rubin and Guy Hocquenghem. :roll:
So which points of the post-modern critique do you agree with and which bits of essentialiosm do you agree with with respect to race and gender?
Both. Isn't that what I just wrote? :roll:
It is, the concept should be integrated into the politics of identity but not taken as the be all and end all of what having an identity means.
Since when were the Greeks a race, you mean they still spoke Greek?
They still spoke Greek, looked like Greeks and not Egyptians, followed Greek customs, and worshiped Greek gods. :roll:
Why would you think a thousand years would be long enough to change evolutionary morphology? Were they still the same cultural Chinese as those still at home?
Yep, still got slanty eyes and pale skin, still speaking Chinese languages, still eating Chinese food, and still worshiping at Mahayana Buddhist temples all over South-East Asia. Even after one-thousand years. :roll:
The Blacks in America are still Black after centuries, and the newly arriving Turks in Europe will still be Turks in a thousand years. ...
Since when are the Turks a race?
I don't know? 44 million results on google for the expression though so I guess someone besides me has thought it. :roll:
The Blacks in America seem very different form their counterparts in Africa? But see above for why you think a few hundred years would change things.
But are they? And don't they very often desire to foster that link. :roll:
And while it is possible that non-Whorfian shifts can happen and race, language, culture and religion can move independently of one another, what actually is happening is the Egyptians still resemble their forebearers in the Fayum mummy portarits, the Yazidi still practice Zoroastrianism, the Jews are still Jewish, and the Dravidians still refuse to speak Hindi and use Tamil. These characteristics developed in symbiotic and cybernetic ecosystems over thousands of years. ...
What do you mean by " cybernetic ecosystems"? All you seem to be pointing out is that culture and custom are fairly stable units.
That is exactly what I mean, "stable units", very well put. :roll:
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

For everyone who's lost their faith in the foreign religion, Christianity, and yet does not find much meaning in atheism, here is a great vid on YouTube by anthropologist Tomas Roswell: a reading list on Indo-Euproean religion to help you get back in touch with the spiritual tradition that has evolved symbiotically with your race, language and culture. was able to find almost all these books online.

https://youtu.be/WHKb6W1lMBU
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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk »

Seleucus wrote:By in large they succeeded which is why we have so many ethno-linguistic nation states. :roll:
I thought you said you were anti-Whorfian?
White, Black, Eskimo, Asian, Korean... :roll:
So race is colour but it's also not?

What is the difference between an Asian and a Korean?
Why don't you start with the wiki page and go out from there,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua%E2%80 ... istinction :roll:
I did, so you think the Han are not the same race as the other orientals?
How about were Egyptians Black? Were the Hyksos White? Who were the Tocharians? Who were the Huns? Did the Dorian invasion really happen? :roll:
Who cares?
It can mean lots of things. I could call myself European, or White, or Greek, or Western, or Indo-European, or Caucasian, or a WASP, or English, or British, or a Celt, or Germanic, and on and on... :roll:
I told you, Greeks aren't white or at least not to the white supremacists they aren't. So 'race' is just whatever you happen to want it to be at the time then sometimes cultural sometime colour.
People with Progeria Syndrome. :roll:
David Gems, professor of biological sciences at the University of Missouri at Columbia
"Werner syndrome is the most common form of progeria. The first signs of this disorder appear only after puberty, with the full symptoms becoming manifest in individuals 20 to 30 years old. A much rarer progeria, Hutchinson-Gilford syndrome, develops earlier: victims die, apparently of old age, typically at around age 12."
And yet these philosophers/academics are saying exactly that: Judy Butler and Gail Rubin and Guy Hocquenghem. :roll:
If they mean there is no such thing as two sexes they are wrong then. I they mean that there are also other combinations they well may be right but its rare.
Both. Isn't that what I just wrote? :roll:
Which bits?
They still spoke Greek, looked like Greeks and not Egyptians, followed Greek customs, and worshiped Greek gods. :roll:
All you are saying is that cultures are hardy.

Do you think none of them took Egyptian wives or husbands over that time?
Yep, still got slanty eyes and pale skin, still speaking Chinese languages, still eating Chinese food, and still worshiping at Mahayana Buddhist temples all over South-East Asia. Even after one-thousand years. :roll:
Except the other Chinese weren't doing this at home?
I don't know? 44 million results on google for the expression though so I guess someone besides me has thought it. :roll:
So you think Turks are Korean?
But are they? And don't they very often desire to foster that link. :roll:
Do they? no idea, all the one's I've met say they are American.
That is exactly what I mean, "stable units", very well put. :roll:
Of which 'race' appears to pay a fairly small part.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk »

Seleucus wrote:Yeah I am. Guess what, White people confronted fascism and colonialism and male rape culture. ...
And guess what, they also were fascists and colonialists and raped and pillaged.
Yeah, let's see those responsible for these Middle Eastern wars prosecuted. ...
We agree.
So now can you be so brave as to say that blowing up little girls and running over children isn't very cool?
I think it a crime that should be punished.
I converted since Islam prohibits apostasy ...
You'd have to be a Muslim first?
and enforces miscegenation laws, ...
Something I presume you and yours would support?
so unless I wanted my wife to have to flee her county, or worse be kidnapped by her cousin and forced into marriage him, that was pretty much the only choice. The fact of having "Islam" on an ID document does not mean overmuch actually...
Except if you and yours get your way you won't be coming home.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:34 pm I have never met a Korean speaking, Orthodox Christian, Tex-Mex Samoan... have you? The fact is that for whatever reason, most Botswanan licensed vehicles don't go too far from Botswana. And in the rare cases when they do, they still blare Botswana music on the radio!
As ever, when caught peddling inaccuracies you evade. You start up another line, as divertingly absurd as possible, then go back to the old nonsense when you hope everyone has forgotten.

You tried to be very careful with your example didn't you, but you still got it wrong! There are lots of Korean Christians, and some are Orthodox.

But never mind, let's pretend you are right. Is your point that there must be a particular mutation of one chromosome that dictates which denomination of Christian a Korean becomes? Or perhaps you think there is a link between having a epicanthic eye fold and their attitude towards the doctrine of original sin? Is it eating pickled vegetables that cause Koreans to pick a particular religion? Or is it their religion that makes them eat pickled vegetables?

And how come, since both North and South Koreans look similar and speak the same language, North Korea is so different from South Korea? Surely their 'race' should have determined that they would have identical cultures?

Do you know the phrase: 'When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging' ? I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:22 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:13 am This is hilarious. Couldn't be better. To seleufleces I'm a 'leftie PC do-gooder', and to davidm I'm a 'rabid racist right-wing nazi'. Doesn't that SAY something??? Could they both be as thick as each other??
Oh man, you're the victim of persecutors again! Why does this keep happening to you?
You are even thicker than I thought. There's no 'victimhood'. I couldn't care less what you morons 'think'. It actually works in my favour that you two idiots put me at polar opposite sides of the political spectrum. Poor dears think everyone comes in a neatly-labeled political box like yourselves.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by davidm »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:09 pm
Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:22 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:13 am This is hilarious. Couldn't be better. To seleufleces I'm a 'leftie PC do-gooder', and to davidm I'm a 'rabid racist right-wing nazi'. Doesn't that SAY something??? Could they both be as thick as each other??
Oh man, you're the victim of persecutors again! Why does this keep happening to you?
You are even thicker than I thought. There's no 'victimhood'. I couldn't care less what you morons 'think'. It actually works in my favour that you two idiots put me at polar opposite sides of the political spectrum. Poor dears think everyone comes in a neatly-labeled political box like yourselves.
Er ... I never called veg a "rabid racist right-wing nazi" -- and look! She even put quote marks around that phrase, dishonestly implying I wrote something that I never wrote!

I do believe I said you were a bigot, which you give good grounds to believe of you.

But the fact that you would falsely attribute a quote to me says a lot. Keep digging your hole!
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

davidm wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:15 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:09 pm
Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:22 pm
Oh man, you're the victim of persecutors again! Why does this keep happening to you?
You are even thicker than I thought. There's no 'victimhood'. I couldn't care less what you morons 'think'. It actually works in my favour that you two idiots put me at polar opposite sides of the political spectrum. Poor dears think everyone comes in a neatly-labeled political box like yourselves.
Er ... I never called veg a "rabid racist right-wing nazi" -- and look! She even put quote marks around that phrase, dishonestly implying I wrote something that I never wrote!

I do believe I said you were a bigot, which you give good grounds to believe of you.

But the fact that you would falsely attribute a quote to me says a lot. Keep digging your hole!
Yes. You predictably trotted out the 'r' word, and racists are rabid right-wingers. It's not my fault 'Progressive' morons don't know what it means. Funny though. A large percentage of immigrants here are white South Africans who hate the fact that they no longer have control over there and yearn for a return to apartheid. They bring their rabid racist fascist politics with them, but according to you this only enriches the glorious cultural melting pot, while I say they should fuck off back to where they came from and suck it up. They aren't refugees in imminent danger. But of course you would call me the racist who should be welcoming them with open arms.
Or were you assuming I was only referring to 'persons of colour' (as opposed to transparent ones)? Hmm. That says more about you than it does me. Do you consider the Japanese racist for having essentially a nil immigration policy? The reason they give? To protect their culture and way of life. It's just a shame they couldn't care less what PC American privileged whities think, especially when they read about all the murders of black people by white American cops, or the racist attacks on other countries (I mean, Iraq was as good as any other muslim country to revenge attack after 11/9 because they are all the same anyway, and muslims are all 'tourists' by default). So no American is in any position to take the moral high ground in any sense whatsoever.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Of course my judgments would always have to do with the culture. To repost my typical response to racism, I think it's just so misdirected and ignores the larger picture, because the truth is the biological differences between race is completely insignificant, when you compare it to the biological differences of the two sexes, and yet we don't at all see the same sort of conflict, especially from a lot of these same racist people. If men and women can get along, I think anyone of any race can. It's just a matter of beliefs correlated to those races, and how dividing they are to each other. Of course there will always be racial eugenicists, but those people are simply dumb and in the vast minority to the people who preferably make judgments based on that race's culture, and not the genes of the race itself.
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