when lying is the right thing to do

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Vendetta
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:28 pm
Location: ehville

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Vendetta » Sun May 21, 2017 6:43 pm

Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:38 pm
Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:31 pm
Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 2:52 pm

People lie to preserve their self-image all the time.
Or further, to preserve the physical or emotional stability of others.
That does not require lying.

For instance with a child, you truthfully tell the child what is good about the child. From this, the child will learn what is not good about the world. This takes no calculation on your part. It only requires you to be totally honest and mindful, to speak the truth that you see which is yes, because yes is life. From truth comes a true life.

For instance, if the child wants to see Santa, find a Santa to show.
The child says, I saw Santa the other day and he looked different. (Different shopping mall).

You say, let me show you a human. And you point to one.
Then you point to another one and say, that’s a different human.

Then the child learns to think by making the connection, and you didn’t lie.

Now the child is truthfully equipped to ask relevant questions about Santa and discover philosophy, history, ethics, selfishness, altruism, principles, relativity, appearance, actions that correlate with appearance, lumps of coal, the rewards of goodness, why Santa prefers red, why he’s so jolly all the time, how do you know what you know, let's go ask a Santa, and so on.

BAD SANTA Movie Clip - Santa's Lap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdMZhnu9fh4

:lol:
Yes, I definitely grant you that. But what if, say, a hitman comes to your house seeking to kill one of your family members. He knocks on the door, and asks you if that individual is in the house. You know that they are upstairs, yet you also know that if you tell him that, he will end up killing them. Do you tell him the truth?

ken
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by ken » Sun May 21, 2017 10:48 pm

Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 2:52 pm
ken wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 7:21 am
I do not know. I can not think of any examples of when lying is the right thing to do.
People lie to preserve their self-image all the time.
Is lying to preserve your self-image, all the time, the right thing to do?

I never said some human beings do not do lie to preserve their self-image. I said I can not think of any examples of when lying is the right thing to do. To Me, lying to preserve your self-image is the wrong thing to do.

Why do think those people who lie to preserve their self-image have such a low self-esteem of themselves? In other words why do you lie to preserve your self-image?

Most human beings I know can not even yet answer the question Who am I, so what 'self'-image are they actually trying to preserve, through lying?

Lying to preserve one's self-image all seems rather contradictory to Me.

ken
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by ken » Sun May 21, 2017 10:55 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:31 pm
Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 2:52 pm
ken wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 7:21 am
I do not know. I can not think of any examples of when lying is the right thing to do.
People lie to preserve their self-image all the time.
Or further, to preserve the physical or emotional stability of others.
You are just telling us what most people do, which most people including Me already know. I do see and notice this misbehavior all the time.

Why are you telling us this? Are you trying to say that lying to preserve the physical or emotional stability of others is the right thing to do?

I will reiterate I can not think of any examples when lying is the right thing to do. Can you provide any actual examples of when lying in these situations could possibly be the right thing to do?

ken
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by ken » Sun May 21, 2017 11:13 pm

Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:38 pm
Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:31 pm
Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 2:52 pm

People lie to preserve their self-image all the time.
Or further, to preserve the physical or emotional stability of others.
That does not require lying.
I can not think of any thing nor any time that requires lying.
Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:38 pm
For instance with a child, you truthfully tell the child what is good about the child. From this, the child will learn what is not good about the world. This takes no calculation on your part. It only requires you to be totally honest and mindful, to speak the truth that you see which is yes, because yes is life. From truth comes a true life.

For instance, if the child wants to see Santa, find a Santa to show.
The child says, I saw Santa the other day and he looked different. (Different shopping mall).

You say, let me show you a human. And you point to one.
Then you point to another one and say, that’s a different human.

Then the child learns to think by making the connection, and you didn’t lie.

Now the child is truthfully equipped to ask relevant questions about Santa and discover philosophy, history, ethics, selfishness, altruism, principles, relativity, appearance, actions that correlate with appearance, lumps of coal, the rewards of goodness, why Santa prefers red, why he’s so jolly all the time, how do you know what you know, let's go ask a Santa, and so on.

BAD SANTA Movie Clip - Santa's Lap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdMZhnu9fh4

:lol:
The topic is 'when is lying the right thing to do'.

By the way did the adult inform the child of the truth, which is "santa" is just a human being dressed up as a fictional character, or did they try to infer to the child, through deleting, or giving false, information that "santa" is real as well as implying that there are different "santas"?

ken
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by ken » Sun May 21, 2017 11:30 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 6:43 pm
Walker wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:38 pm
Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 3:31 pm


Or further, to preserve the physical or emotional stability of others.
That does not require lying.

For instance with a child, you truthfully tell the child what is good about the child. From this, the child will learn what is not good about the world. This takes no calculation on your part. It only requires you to be totally honest and mindful, to speak the truth that you see which is yes, because yes is life. From truth comes a true life.

For instance, if the child wants to see Santa, find a Santa to show.
The child says, I saw Santa the other day and he looked different. (Different shopping mall).

You say, let me show you a human. And you point to one.
Then you point to another one and say, that’s a different human.

Then the child learns to think by making the connection, and you didn’t lie.

Now the child is truthfully equipped to ask relevant questions about Santa and discover philosophy, history, ethics, selfishness, altruism, principles, relativity, appearance, actions that correlate with appearance, lumps of coal, the rewards of goodness, why Santa prefers red, why he’s so jolly all the time, how do you know what you know, let's go ask a Santa, and so on.

BAD SANTA Movie Clip - Santa's Lap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdMZhnu9fh4

:lol:
Yes, I definitely grant you that. But what if, say, a hitman comes to your house seeking to kill one of your family members. He knocks on the door, and asks you if that individual is in the house. You know that they are upstairs, yet you also know that if you tell him that, he will end up killing them. Do you tell him the truth?
If asked if that individual is in the house, then I tell them the truth, "I do not know where they are". For all I know they could have left the house or moved from where they were while I am answering the door, so the truth is I do not know where they are.

As for doing this for a "family member" no human being is more special than another so I treat ALL human beings the same. Therefore, I give the same response for ALL people equally.

I would also ask the human being, who wants to kill another human being, "What do you want to do that for? And I would keep questioning them whatever responses they give and keep doing this. I would try and divert their attention away from the issue rather than just lying. If they believe the person they are seeking is in the house, then no amount of lying will stop them anyway.

Walker
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Mon May 22, 2017 11:24 am

Fooling oneself is necessary for the one fooling oneself or else it wouldn’t happen.

*

American Irony.

Would you believe it could happen?
This fellow is actually a United States senator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcdIQRCoc10

Walker
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Mon May 22, 2017 12:16 pm

ken wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 11:13 pm
By the way did the adult inform the child of the truth, which is "santa" is just a human being dressed up as a fictional character, or did they try to infer to the child, through deleting, or giving false, information that "santa" is real as well as implying that there are different "santas"?
To keep it relevant, this would be a good place to start.

Eventually it might even move on to a philosophical discussion of principles and identity, intent and deeds, selfishness and compassion. And then there is the definition of reality, and, precautions for vigilance to be alert for the boogie man, and how he appears with a smiling face and what he may say to fool you, but not all smiling faces are boogie men. All in discussion with a child. You would be amazed at how much they understand. Of course, one must speak so that the child hears the truth and not lies. Because the child will grow up and remember what you said.

Ark bearing popular Saint Nicholas' relics come to Moscow
https://www.yahoo.com/news/saint-nichol ... 14499.html

ken
Posts: 1928
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by ken » Mon May 22, 2017 3:20 pm

Walker wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 12:16 pm
You would be amazed at how much they understand.
I am never amazed at just how much children understand. In fact the younger the child is the more they do understand, about what is right and wrong in Life. Actually adults would learn far more from children then they give them credit for. Children can actually teach far more about Life and living then adults realize. If children were just listened to properly, then the world would become a much better place to live in than it is now. And, the younger the child, the greater the teacher it is.
Walker wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 12:16 pm
Of course, one must speak so that the child hears the truth and not lies. Because the child will grow up and remember what you said.
And why must a child grow up and remember that an adult said truth and not lies?

Has any grown up ever remembered only ever hearing truth and not lies?

Imagine how different a world would be in where every adult only ever remembers hearing truths and never a lie?

It would be a great experiment to start. A place where ALL adults only ever told the truth. A place of with no fear of being punished nor ridiculed for just expressing your true thoughts.

Just maybe only ever expressing and hearing the truth might be one way of discovering the truth of who we really are? But I guess we will never know if we never try.

Walker
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Tue May 23, 2017 10:11 am

If your purpose is to fool people for one reason or another, then you lie.

Even a child understands that.

Londoner
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Londoner » Tue May 23, 2017 12:45 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 6:43 pm

Yes, I definitely grant you that. But what if, say, a hitman comes to your house seeking to kill one of your family members. He knocks on the door, and asks you if that individual is in the house. You know that they are upstairs, yet you also know that if you tell him that, he will end up killing them. Do you tell him the truth?
I think the way that is put is rather artificial.

The person is a 'hitman', which simplifies matters by denying the possibility that they might also have moral agency, or be intending to do anything else except kill. Suppose instead the person is a soldier, or a policeman, in pursuit of somebody they regard as a criminal or dangerous?

And the person they want to kill is 'one of your family members'. Again this description avoids the question of moral agency by suggesting they must be an innocent victim, (targeted by this hitman for no apparent reason!). And, because it involves a family relationship it also gets us off the hook in that it is considered pardonable to be extra protective of such people, we are 'allowed to be biased'.

The way it is put also avoids the question of why the hunted person is in your house. This is important because if you have allowed somebody into your house then you have already acted - if they are being chased you have already consented to 'lie' in that you are concealing them. You have also offered them protection, so you had already taken sides before the hitman came to your door.

If we configured the scenario in any realistic way the problem would not arise; 'Suppose and escaping terrorist was hiding in your house; should you tell the police?' or 'Suppose Anne Frank was hiding in the attic, should you tell the SS?'. In such scenarios, we would not treat the 'telling a lie' aspect as raising a separate moral problem, distinct from the general situation.

I think this is always the case; I do not think we (most of us) address moral issues one at a time. Rather we try to maintain a broad position - we try to be consistent rather than adopting any hard and fast rules. I don't think that is bad - we have no choice since in real life we are never in possession of all the facts or can have certainty about outcomes.

Walker
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Tue May 23, 2017 1:36 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 6:43 pm
Yes, I definitely grant you that. But what if, say, a hitman comes to your house seeking to kill one of your family members. He knocks on the door, and asks you if that individual is in the house. You know that they are upstairs, yet you also know that if you tell him that, he will end up killing them. Do you tell him the truth?
Let’s say that such a situation is indeed plausible; that in fact, the wolf is at your door, you know it is the wolf, and wolf declares that it wants to destroy what is most precious to you in the world, which is a family member.

So, the wolf politely asks you, where is this family member?

Ahem. Okay. That's the fantasy situation you describe.

Question:

Why would the wolf do this? Just to screw around with you?
- Because, the wolf is not there to ask you questions.
- You know why the wolf is there.
- It told you.
- Whatever you say will not influence the wolf.
- Whatever you say will be verified.
- Whatever you say will not deviate the wolf from its purpose.
- Lie, tell the truth, it doesn’t matter to the wolf.

Now, what do you do?

commonsense
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by commonsense » Wed May 24, 2017 2:11 am

Walker wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 10:11 am
If your purpose is to fool people for one reason or another, then you lie.
Restated, whenever your intention is to mislead, the right thing to do is to lie.

When could whenever come into play, fulfilling the conditions of the premise? Possibly in the event of a conflict where the value of lying outweighs the conflicting value.

Lying might be the right thing to do when pitted against the preservation of life, for example when the hitman comes to your door; perhaps when lying to preserve a relationship, such as when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?” or when a prisoner of war is being interrogated by the enemy.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.

Thank you, Walker, for leading me to this. And thank you, everyone, for the counterarguments that are sure to follow.

prof
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:57 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by prof » Wed May 24, 2017 8:25 am

Those interested in this topic would also enjoy the discussion on pages 40-42, under the caption "On Lying and Honesty", HERE:

http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... _Lifef.pdf

and also see this dialogue on the value of "honesty" here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10879


The former link discusses "the little white lies" and the issue of "lying to save a life."

The second link offered is on what it means to be honest, and whether it pays to pursue a life of honesty.

Walker
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Wed May 24, 2017 8:47 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 2:11 am
Walker wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 10:11 am
If your purpose is to fool people for one reason or another, then you lie.
Restated, whenever your intention is to mislead, the right thing to do is to lie.

When could whenever come into play, fulfilling the conditions of the premise? Possibly in the event of a conflict where the value of lying outweighs the conflicting value.

Lying might be the right thing to do when pitted against the preservation of life, for example when the hitman comes to your door; perhaps when lying to preserve a relationship, such as when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?” or when a prisoner of war is being interrogated by the enemy.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.

Thank you, Walker, for leading me to this. And thank you, everyone, for the counterarguments that are sure to follow.
Those situations do not require lying.

Question: Hitman at the door asking questions, and you both know the situation.
Answer to hitman: F-you.

Question: Does this make my butt look big?
Answer: If the butt is already big, the answer is either it makes the butt irrestible, or the answer is that you always liked the cut of the other garment (which happens to be black and thus doesn’t accentuate the ass.) If the butt is not big the answer is, no, it does not make your butt look big.

Now, define big. If the butt is humungous you both know it, and if the question is asked in that situation, then you're both either going to get a good laugh, or the above answer will still apply.


Question: POW being interrogated.
Answer: Name, rank and serial number.

*

Best to remember that the standard against which lying and truth is measured is life, because life is the measure of all things.

The standard is not an abstract morality.
The standard is not a movie, or a song.

Abstract morality is instantly used against you in situations of confrontation that you think might require lying. An example of this is Christians who have respect for clean living, clean speech, and peace, and try to live accordingly. Well, this becomes a point of attack for those disrespectful to Christianity, because it is a concept. It becomes a point of mockery, especially if the attacker can goad the Christian into doing something that a Christian would not do, according to the abstracts. If the non-Christian can goad the Christian into anger and non-peacefulness, that action will refute the concept of the Christian objective, and that action will prove whatever it is that the goader wants it to prove, for in fact the Christian is gritting his teeth and obviously thinking hostile thoughts, judging by that facial expression.

The non-Christian is free to act like a parading, singing bully if he must under the conditions for he is not bound to that Christian concept of clean speech, etc. Or, if he so chooses because he thinks he is in control, he might in fact be out of control and later even say, that wasn't me.

Making one’s understanding of a text-book situation, the basis of interpreting reality, in fact becomes a limitation. This is caused by clinging to a standard other than life, and because naturally, whatever cure one clings to in turn becomes the disease.

How about if this mysterious hitman … this blank slate receiving philosophical projections as if he is nothing more than a concept placeholder standing there … what if he is imminently threatening what is most precious to you and demanding that you tell secrets that will result in death for someone. Do you think your lies or truth will make any difference to such a creature?

Now, what do you do?

Morality situation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks2SXmI4Njc

(any complaints?)

:)

commonsense
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by commonsense » Wed May 24, 2017 1:16 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 2:11 am
Walker wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 10:11 am
If your purpose is to fool people for one reason or another, then you [are not required to but might choose to] lie.
Restated, whenever your intention is to mislead, the right thing,[which you are not required to do but might choose] to do is to lie.

When could whenever come into play, fulfilling the conditions of the premise? Possibly in the event of a conflict where the value of lying outweighs the conflicting value.

Lying might be the right thing to do when pitted against the preservation of life, for example when the hitman comes to your door; perhaps when lying to preserve a relationship, such as when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?” or when a prisoner of war is being interrogated by the enemy.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.

Thank you, Walker, for leading me to this. And thank you, everyone, for the counterarguments that are sure to follow.
Who said anything about requiring?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Belinda and 7 guests