Thou Shall not Kill

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RWStanding
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Thou Shall not Kill

Post by RWStanding »

Thou Shall not Kill
The Ten Commandments or Decalogue is familiar territory to three mainstream religions and their offshoots. But it may be commented on from several perspectives.
That no person should be killed in any way is a prescription of perfection. A perfected altruist society would have no need or fact of people being actively killed. But then, exactly the same applies to anarchistic society and indeed a tyranny. If a tyranny works without fault or error then why should anyone be killed? That leaves aside acts of euthanasia, but even there a perfected society would presumably have no such need.
That people are killed, and perhaps need to be, is a description of real society, or any society that is likely to exist, dealing with humanity and not androids.
The most simple community, such as may have faced Moses, needs law and a basis for that law is provided by the commandments. This has to be expanded for practical use, as is found in the later parts and books of the bible. The ancient Hebrew developed a complex range of law, recognised by Jesus of Nazareth, and evolving today in Jewish communities.
This raises the question of how the English translation, Thou shall not kill, has latterly become You shall not commit murder. The older translation was emphasised or extended by Jesus into turning the other cheek. Something which has caused immense heartache with this being taken as an absolute causing many people to become pacifists.
Not to commit murder is far more clever. It leaves open how a person may legitimately kill another, and exactly how murder may be defined pragmatically. Suicide was until recently seen as self-murder. Self-defence is a quagmire. What Moses actually said will never be known. Even if someone found ancient tablets with the supposed commandments inscribed.
At this point the real fundamentals need to be considered. The law of a modern country has to be pragmatic, and proscribe or permit numerous acts and things. But ethics as the basis of law, has itself to be careful to compartmentalise its various levels. Employing a single value to legitimise or not a practical act or thing is the stuff of blind bigots. People who decide what they do not like, and then find a value that appears to oppose it. A value like Tolerance can indeed allow almost anything that is fashionable, merely to avoid conflict and to appear nice. The point about basic values or motives, is that they do not directly relate to any pragmatic.
Pragmatics are the actual acts, or the things that are employed for the acts.
Thus, to Kill or Murder, in the commandments is a jump in logic. It is the values that have to be considered first. As indeed it may be deduced Jesus of Nazareth tried to demonstrate, with dubious effect. As already stated, no stable society can have non-judicial killing of people in that society. Altruist or otherwise. The principal value in question, or motive, appears to be malice opposed to some order of charity. Malice and murder are consonant with Chaos. What was said in the previous paragraph about fundamentals needs to be modified slightly. Most value that have been considered such as tolerance, duty, egoism, define types of stable society, altruistic or otherwise. Even anarchism has a minimalist or egotistic form of charity. Tyranny has cold charity. Malice, as an intention to destroy, is perhaps the value of Chaos and war. In that case Charity defines stable society, but choosing between them requires a combination of other values.
Knives, cars, lorries, are good or bad according to their use, or whether they are used at all, not on the basis of tolerance but of values in combination and opposition.
Walker
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Walker »

RWStanding wrote:A perfected altruist society would have no need or fact of people being actively killed.
Sure it would. People being killed is the final extrapolation that allows the principle of altruism to exist.

A perfect altruist such as a perfect bodhisattva offers his body as food to the hungry tiger, which is the final extrapolation of the altruism principle that requires self-sacrifice to help others, not simply helping others without self-sacrifice.

Thus, a perfected altruist society is one in which the end-road of that principle ends with each altruistic individual taking a turn at feeding the tiger. However, to enforce that another be food, when that other has not reached the internal choiceless state of being food, is a violation of that individual’s human rights, since there are bound to be individuals within a society who exist in states of consciousness other than choiceless altruism.

For those who don’t feel the imperative to be tiger food at the drop of a hat, a perfected altruist society must impose the dietary rules as law, and legislated altruism often turns into slave-Ukraine feeding Moscow, or some such silliness. In effect, to starve in order to feed another is an altruistic act, like the guardians of the seed bank who starved while guarding the seeds for mankind. But if the tiger-food doesn’t choicelessly starve, then altruism is slavery.
Dalek Prime
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Dalek Prime »

Though shalt not be a killjoy.
Walker
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Walker »

To accommodate every slave of circumstances is to be a slave of circumstance.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Utopia is a fiction; predation is real: Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!
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HexHammer
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by HexHammer »

RWStanding wrote:Thou Shall not Kill
The Ten Commandments or Decalogue is familiar territory to three mainstream religions and their offshoots. But it may be commented on from several perspectives.
That no person should be killed in any way is a prescription of perfection. A perfected altruist society would have no need or fact of people being actively killed. But then, exactly the same applies to anarchistic society and indeed a tyranny. If a tyranny works without fault or error then why should anyone be killed? That leaves aside acts of euthanasia, but even there a perfected society would presumably have no such need.
That people are killed, and perhaps need to be, is a description of real society, or any society that is likely to exist, dealing with humanity and not androids.
The most simple community, such as may have faced Moses, needs law and a basis for that law is provided by the commandments. This has to be expanded for practical use, as is found in the later parts and books of the bible. The ancient Hebrew developed a complex range of law, recognised by Jesus of Nazareth, and evolving today in Jewish communities.
Humans can have a dualistic nature, that they can be killing machines on the battlefield, but yet good and respectable family fathers, etc.

The Red Baron was a prime example of being a gentleman on the battlefield, that even his enemies would come and honor him at his graveyard.

To kill the enemy to save your own people are altruistic, that's why you see God command other people to be killed, for the greater good!

Someone who are terminal ill and live in pain each day all day! May want to die, and should be allowed to die, so that they can escape the pain, that is altruistic!
Impenitent
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Impenitent »

HexHammer wrote:
RWStanding wrote:Thou Shall not Kill
The Ten Commandments or Decalogue is familiar territory to three mainstream religions and their offshoots. But it may be commented on from several perspectives.
That no person should be killed in any way is a prescription of perfection. A perfected altruist society would have no need or fact of people being actively killed. But then, exactly the same applies to anarchistic society and indeed a tyranny. If a tyranny works without fault or error then why should anyone be killed? That leaves aside acts of euthanasia, but even there a perfected society would presumably have no such need.
That people are killed, and perhaps need to be, is a description of real society, or any society that is likely to exist, dealing with humanity and not androids.
The most simple community, such as may have faced Moses, needs law and a basis for that law is provided by the commandments. This has to be expanded for practical use, as is found in the later parts and books of the bible. The ancient Hebrew developed a complex range of law, recognised by Jesus of Nazareth, and evolving today in Jewish communities.
Humans can have a dualistic nature, that they can be killing machines on the battlefield, but yet good and respectable family fathers, etc.

The Red Baron was a prime example of being a gentleman on the battlefield, that even his enemies would come and honor him at his graveyard.

To kill the enemy to save your own people are altruistic, that's why you see God command other people to be killed, for the greater good!

Someone who are terminal ill and live in pain each day all day! May want to die, and should be allowed to die, so that they can escape the pain, that is altruistic!
everyone is destined to die... terminally ill...

Buddha taught that existence is suffering...

assist in the escape... especially those proclaiming they will save the world and bring utopia...

history never repeats

-Imp
thedoc
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by thedoc »

Impenitent wrote: Buddha taught that existence is suffering...
And Buddha was wrong. perhaps that is why I'm not a very good Buddhist.
osgart
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by osgart »

the line that separates good from evil. Killing is to do away with that which is evil. Murder destroys innocent life. What could be simpler? Justification true must be established. Let the punishment fit the crime. Everyone knows the difference between good and evil.
Innocence is a known thing.
Guilt is a known thing as well.
Everyone knows the difference.
Its a heart nature issue. True justice is of the heart. Choose who you are wisely. The heart of hearts makes the choice. What you love becomes you.
thedoc
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by thedoc »

osgart wrote: the line that separates good from evil. Killing is to do away with that which is evil. Murder destroys innocent life. What could be simpler?
No, Killing is for survival, (what did you eat today that you did not kill), murder is for convenience, (You murder someone you don't like).
Walker
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Walker »

thedoc wrote:
Impenitent wrote: Buddha taught that existence is suffering...
And Buddha was wrong. perhaps that is why I'm not a very good Buddhist.
That’s rule one of the Four Noble Truths, a fragment of what's taught as a unit, but rarely quoted as such, and since it’s really not so difficult to understand, then the depth and spark to move from thought to action completes the lesson that rounds out the fragment.
thedoc
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by thedoc »

Walker wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Impenitent wrote: Buddha taught that existence is suffering...
And Buddha was wrong. perhaps that is why I'm not a very good Buddhist.
That’s rule one of the Four Noble Truths, a fragment of what's taught as a unit, but rarely quoted as such, and since it’s really not so difficult to understand, then the depth and spark to move from thought to action completes the lesson that rounds out the fragment.
While I agree that there is some suffering in life, I do not agree with those who claim that ALL life is suffering. I would also agree that implementing the other 3 noble truths will help to alleviate the suffering that exists, and the 8 fold path is certainly good advice.
Walker
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Walker »

thedoc wrote:
Walker wrote:
thedoc wrote:
And Buddha was wrong. perhaps that is why I'm not a very good Buddhist.
That’s rule one of the Four Noble Truths, a fragment of what's taught as a unit, but rarely quoted as such, and since it’s really not so difficult to understand, then the depth and spark to move from thought to action completes the lesson that rounds out the fragment.
While I agree that there is some suffering in life, I do not agree with those who claim that ALL life is suffering. I would also agree that implementing the other 3 noble truths will help to alleviate the suffering that exists, and the 8 fold path is certainly good advice.
Correct. The truth is not that all of existence, and every experience within existence, is suffering.
And, the truth is not that Buddha was wrong.

Rather, the truth is that everyone knows the experience of suffering, thus can relate to Buddha's teaching about the nature of mind within the context of personal experience. Any universal experience can be used to teach the nature of mind, as can rare experience, but the rare is less understandable than the universal by the many because the many don't experience the rare.

For example, hunger is a universal experience, but it is false to say that everyone is hungry all the time, just as it is false to say that existence is all-the-time suffering.
Dalek Prime
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Re: Thou Shall not Kill

Post by Dalek Prime »

Thou shall not do murder.
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