Race versus culture

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Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:17 pm

Seleucus wrote:
- You cried wolf so many times now that no one cares about this Nazi, racist, transphobic, sexist, Islamaphobic name-calling anymore.
I wish that all those were false alerts.

I myself have been too complaisant about the recent upsurge of fascists among previously tolerant societies. Seleucus has helped me to orient myself. I had thought that Trump was an inefficient politician. True, he is not a talented self-publicist like Hitler, but he sympathises with far-right roughs, toughs, and terrorists, plus he has an awful lot of power.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:52 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:17 pm
Seleucus wrote:
- You cried wolf so many times now that no one cares about this Nazi, racist, transphobic, sexist, Islamaphobic name-calling anymore.
I wish that all those were false alerts.

I myself have been too complaisant about the recent upsurge of fascists among previously tolerant societies. Seleucus has helped me to orient myself. I had thought that Trump was an inefficient politician. True, he is not a talented self-publicist like Hitler, but he sympathises with far-right roughs, toughs, and terrorists, plus he has an awful lot of power.
What specifically did you see or hear that when you think of you feel concerned?

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:52 pm

Seleucus wrote:
What specifically did you see or hear that when you think of you feel concerned?
You can do your own research, Seleucus. I hope that you don't become radicalised.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 am

Belinda wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:52 pm
Seleucus wrote:
What specifically did you see or hear that when you think of you feel concerned?
You can do your own research, Seleucus. I hope that you don't become radicalised.
I've already presented extensive research from towards literally one-hundred sources, mostly quality academic sources, in the course of this discussion. I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm not a mind reader.

What I have observed, is that certain people, mostly Christians and modernists, tried to hide from me who I really was, so I had no idea growing up about the ancient customs and spiritual traditions of my people were. And once I found out about the ways we had followed for millennia, I saw that they were amazing. And I don't want whats left and what can be recovered of my civilization to irrevocably lost and destroyed by the globalists and waves of (im)migration of hostile foreigners. What I've learned from this discussion is that identities and culture are very stable, and even when they seem to have disappeared, they are still there right below the surface. The implication is therefore that the great Western traditions of the White race can be saved, but that those aliens who are coming into our homelands will never assimilate and must be kept from out in general and especially from political control lest they turn our countries also into 3rd World garbage dumps and war zones.

Dubious
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Dubious » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:15 am

Seleucus wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 am
The implication is therefore that the great Western traditions of the White race can be saved, but that those aliens who are coming into our homelands will never assimilate and must be kept from out in general and especially from political control lest they turn our countries also into 3rd World garbage dumps and war zones.
Too late! The "White race" is too politically correct and stupid to stop it especially in the western regions of Western Civilization. Amazing that virtually no other part of the planet is as amenable and welcoming to foreign influences as the so-called enlightened and advanced Western nations. But in the West we have one very major problem which expedites the concept of openness, i.e., we aren't producing enough of ourselves to keep us going into the future and to maintain the political and social system as we now know it. It's at the point where even "Westerners" are no-longer as "Western" as they used to be. The "pollutants" if you want to call it that, has crept into both sides.

But why be concerned? At some point (and I'm not thinking NK) a nuclear war is guaranteed which, though it may kill a billion or two the consequences will eliminate many more much more slowly for a very long time...not to mention DNA aberrations in the newly born. Who knows if humans won't transition into a race of Morlocks in the aftermath.The technology to make things right will never equal the consequences of a nuclear winter. Forget ethnicity, culture or race; the race for all remaining will be to survive. Even if we do, being the most loathsome species on the planet, will anything else except that which crawls on your skin!

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:02 pm

Seleucus wrote:
----mostly Christians and modernists, tried to hide from me who I really was, so I had no idea growing up about the ancient customs and spiritual traditions of my people were. And once I found out about the ways we had followed for millennia, I saw that they were amazing.
It is typical of right wing sympathisers to be optimistic about the human past especially the European past. There is no need to ignore the riches of European high culture in order to recognise also the cruelties, greeds, genocides, alienation, deprivation and inequalities among European societies.

I was reared in a place where ancient customs are stronger than ever and indeed remain to be taken seriously enough by locals and are nowadays a thriving tourist attraction. These particular ancient and exceptionally colourful customs, among other more laudable observances, pay tribute to actual thieves and lawless robbers of the past in that locality where during those Romantic times the richer robbers could live safely only in stone towers with walls three feet thick and few windows. And yet you despise "modernity"! Medieval and early modern Scotland was like Americans owning personal guns because there lacked any effective central control over law and order.

Seleucus, you should look at the history of the Scottish Highland clans where the lairds as soon as they got the chance of a quick profit shafted the ordinary clansmen and drove them into poverty. Your idea of social class is Romantically driven. President Trump is not "a great man" but is a dangerously poor diplomat as in shifting your embassy to Jerusalem.He more resembles those Scottish lairds who moved against their own clan members. Indeed sheep were profitable but the profits accrued to the lairds not to the common people, similarly with today's America and here in the UK too. Who profits? Not Seleucus unless Seleucus is among the rich elite.

You deride your own early years Christian influence. You should credit the civilising influence on man's past of Christianity where credit is due.
You identify the uncivilising influence with incomers from foreign parts and foreign customs. You should identify the uncivilising influence with the old Adam of all human nature the corruption of all uncontrolled elites.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 am

Dubious wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:15 am
Seleucus wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 am
The implication is therefore that the great Western traditions of the White race can be saved, but that those aliens who are coming into our homelands will never assimilate and must be kept from out in general and especially from political control lest they turn our countries also into 3rd World garbage dumps and war zones.
Too late! The "White race" is too politically correct and stupid to stop it especially in the western regions of Western Civilization. Amazing that virtually no other part of the planet is as amenable and welcoming to foreign influences as the so-called enlightened and advanced Western nations. But in the West we have one very major problem which expedites the concept of openness, i.e., we aren't producing enough of ourselves to keep us going into the future and to maintain the political and social system as we now know it. It's at the point where even "Westerners" are no-longer as "Western" as they used to be. The "pollutants" if you want to call it that, has crept into both sides.

But why be concerned? At some point (and I'm not thinking NK) a nuclear war is guaranteed which, though it may kill a billion or two the consequences will eliminate many more much more slowly for a very long time...not to mention DNA aberrations in the newly born. Who knows if humans won't transition into a race of Morlocks in the aftermath.The technology to make things right will never equal the consequences of a nuclear winter. Forget ethnicity, culture or race; the race for all remaining will be to survive. Even if we do, being the most loathsome species on the planet, will anything else except that which crawls on your skin!
I agree with you that life on Earth is likely to be affected by a major human causes event. I expect the environment will fail and domes and space stations is the future. This is a very sad fact since nature is so central to traditionalism.

Also I expect something that comes out of your comment is the need for traditionalist to embrace something like tehnopaganism lest the movement turn totally backwards as happened to Islam from the 10th Century on, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopaganism

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:22 am

Belinda wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:02 pm
Seleucus wrote:
----mostly Christians and modernists, tried to hide from me who I really was, so I had no idea growing up about the ancient customs and spiritual traditions of my people were. And once I found out about the ways we had followed for millennia, I saw that they were amazing.
It is typical of right wing sympathisers to be optimistic about the human past especially the European past. There is no need to ignore the riches of European high culture in order to recognise also the cruelties, greeds, genocides, alienation, deprivation and inequalities among European societies.
Okay.
I was reared in a place where ancient customs are stronger than ever and indeed remain to be taken seriously enough by locals and are nowadays a thriving tourist attraction.
You're a Cambodian?
These particular ancient and exceptionally colourful customs, among other more laudable observances, pay tribute to actual thieves and lawless robbers of the past in that locality where during those Romantic times the richer robbers could live safely only in stone towers with walls three feet thick and few windows. And yet you despise "modernity"! Medieval and early modern Scotland was like Americans owning personal guns because there lacked any effective central control over law and order.
Help your friends and harm your enemies, that is the heroic morality.
Seleucus, you should look at the history of the Scottish Highland clans where the lairds as soon as they got the chance of a quick profit shafted the ordinary clansmen and drove them into poverty.
Sounds like we agree that the elite can become ostentatious and top heavy on a society.
Your idea of social class is Romantically driven. President Trump is not "a great man" but is a dangerously poor diplomat as in shifting your embassy to Jerusalem.He more resembles those Scottish lairds who moved against their own clan members.
That was the greatest thing ever! I'm still glowing with thrill! Trump! Trump! Trump!
Indeed sheep were profitable but the profits accrued to the lairds not to the common people, similarly with today's America and here in the UK too. Who profits? Not Seleucus unless Seleucus is among the rich elite.
I'm among the top 10% as far as global wealth goes from what I've read. Trump is the savior of the common productive working man upon who free democracy depends.
You deride your own early years Christian influence. You should credit the civilising influence on man's past of Christianity where credit is due.
I agree indeed in celebrating certain elements of Christianity against leftist critics.
You identify the uncivilising influence with incomers from foreign parts and foreign customs.
Obviously.

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:59 am

Seleucus wrote, besides his juvenile idea about what constitutes a hero :
Trump is the savior of the common productive working man upon who free democracy depends.
Hitler and Stalin were 'saviours' (saviors) of the common productive working man.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 am

Belinda wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:59 am
Seleucus wrote, besides his juvenile idea about what constitutes a hero :
Trump is the savior of the common productive working man upon who free democracy depends.
Hitler and Stalin were 'saviours' (saviors) of the common productive working man.
I'm not sure which your point is, are you saying saying something is wrong about my understanding of heroic ethics,

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/beowulf/themes.html

https://www.classicsnetwork.com/essays/ ... of-the/369

or, are you trying to compare Donald Trump to Hitler or Stalin?

Hopefully the first as that will be an interesting discussion, while the latter is an already tired and ridiculous trope.

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:26 am

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 am
Belinda wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:59 am
Seleucus wrote, besides his juvenile idea about what constitutes a hero :
Trump is the savior of the common productive working man upon who free democracy depends.
Hitler and Stalin were 'saviours' (saviors) of the common productive working man.
I'm not sure which your point is, are you saying saying something is wrong about my understanding of heroic ethics,

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/beowulf/themes.html

https://www.classicsnetwork.com/essays/ ... of-the/369

or, are you trying to compare Donald Trump to Hitler or Stalin?

Hopefully the first as that will be an interesting discussion, while the latter is an already tired and ridiculous trope.
I am saying both of the above.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:53 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:26 am
Seleucus wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 am
Belinda wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:59 am
Seleucus wrote, besides his juvenile idea about what constitutes a hero :

Hitler and Stalin were 'saviours' (saviors) of the common productive working man.
I'm not sure which your point is, are you saying saying something is wrong about my understanding of heroic ethics,

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/beowulf/themes.html

https://www.classicsnetwork.com/essays/ ... of-the/369

or, are you trying to compare Donald Trump to Hitler or Stalin?

Hopefully the first as that will be an interesting discussion, while the latter is an already tired and ridiculous trope.
I am saying both of the above.
I took a few days to do some reading and double check. Yes, "help your friends and hurt your enemies" is a classic expression of heroic ethics. It appears all over the place in old sources, on Sulla's tomb for example, but it is probably most well known to us as it went under and the new world emerged, Plato had his Socrates dispute it, and of course Jesus flatly contradicts the line by saying to love your enemies. Heroic values mean respect for tradition hence is one of the main themes of both the Ramayana and also the Mahabharata. Loyalty is filial, tribal, and to one's race: note the last lines of Sophocles's Ajax, "and his whole race", link. Considered a statement on the hero, Ajax is important too since it shows the hero demanding of himself to be the best, and if he cannot be, then he prefers death. In Hesiod's Works and days the poet expresses the Buddhist sentiment that all is dukkha, to live is to labor. These are in many ways the values of the hero Donald Trump: war like, he puts his own people first: "America first", that also means a belief in superiority, and he is true to the traditions and to the value of hard work. If we can believe Franz Fanon in Wretched of the Earth, the universalist (slave/Christian/politically correct/liberal/modern/communist) ethic is always really a fraud. As soon as the Algerians had thrown off the French, their own new elite occupied the very same properties and offices that had been abandoned, and the prisons were soon filled with their own new enemies and underclass.

Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:24 pm

Seleucus, your interpretation of the life of Jesus is incorrect. He was not a wimp but came to bring a sword. In defence of the poor and downtrodden. Unlike Trump who cares not at all for the poor and downtrodden, except insofar as they vote for him.

As for Fanon, the alienation from their traditional structures which colonists(French particularly) wrought upon colonised peoples was akin to violence, (NB Algeria)and economic gain for the colonists was often combined with a smell of holiness on the part of the colonists.Please see Marie Perimbam.

Of course there is always an elite in any society.

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