The Anonymous in Religious Music

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Nick_A
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Nick_A »

Hobbes wrote: The least you could have done would have been to say what the fuck you meant by anonymous in the context of music, You area laying the same silly childish game that Immanuel Can does.: Make ridiculous claims then fails to say what he means by them.
It's no wonder no one takes you seriously.
Doc, I want you to understand the intent of the thread and why a”anonymous” had to be felt rather torn apart. If we are to get any of the benefits of wht Plato understood, we cannot tolerate this abuse. Consider what Plato wrote:


"
If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows." ― Plato, Phaedrus
Music of the quality being described and when it is perfect helps a person to experience the anonymous in a way impossible for the intellect. That is why I appreciate it because it helps me open to something greater than myself. Those like Harbal and Hobbes seek to degrade it. If the mods allow it then everything Plato and Socrates introduced is meaningless on this forum and is open to its ridicule along with the ridicule of those who seek to discuss it. Then it becomes worthless. Sometimes a person has to take a stand for the good of philosophy and those with a love of wisdom.
thedoc
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by thedoc »

Nick_A wrote: Doc, I want you to understand the intent of the thread and why a”anonymous” had to be felt rather torn apart. If we are to get any of the benefits of wht Plato understood, we cannot tolerate this abuse. Consider what Plato wrote:

"
If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows." ― Plato, Phaedrus
Music of the quality being described and when it is perfect helps a person to experience the anonymous in a way impossible for the intellect. That is why I appreciate it because it helps me open to something greater than myself. Those like Harbal and Hobbes seek to degrade it. If the mods allow it then everything Plato and Socrates introduced is meaningless on this forum and is open to its ridicule along with the ridicule of those who seek to discuss it. Then it becomes worthless. Sometimes a person has to take a stand for the good of philosophy and those with a love of wisdom.
In a way what you are describing is much like how the Buddhists describe Enlightenment, it has to be experienced and cannot adequately be described with words. There is a Buddhist saying, "Those who say, don't know, and those who know, don't say."
thedoc
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by thedoc »

Nick_A wrote: Sometimes a person has to take a stand for the good of philosophy and those with a love of wisdom.
There are different ways to take a stand, and I don't believe abandoning the field is the correct stand to take, in this case I would recommend to ignore your accusers and state your case anyhow.
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Lacewing
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Lacewing »

Nick_A wrote:These people have turned this thread into the intentional abuse of philosophy and the need to "understand"...
Doesn't this describe the entire PN website? I've tried many times to have meaningful discussions -- and they don't last long, if they get off the ground at all. Everybody is on their own trip and in one mood or another.

I must say though, if someone here is attacking kazoo players, that's inexcusable! There are just some things you don't make fun of.

I use Bob and Bill as the barometer: as long as they are allowed to keep posting what they do, anything goes and there are no high-quality standards.
thedoc
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by thedoc »

Lacewing wrote: I must say though, if someone here is attacking kazoo players, that's inexcusable! There are just some things you don't make fun of.
Well I never said that Kazoo players are of no value, I just can't agree that the sound they make is music.
Impenitent
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Impenitent »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62MPO9rHep0

Amazing grace on the kazoo no less...

-Imp
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Greta
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote:
A work of art has an author and yet, when it is perfect, it has something which is anonymous about it. Simone Weil
Do you ever sense something in older religious music that is anonymous and you would never find in rap? For example Schubert wrote the Ave Maria but is there something else there as well that isn't in today's music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bosouX_d8Y
I think that anonymity is a function of the times. The individual was subservient to God and reigning monarch in the music of the royal courts. At the same time folk music being played by the lower classed was personal and individually expressive. You could say that jazz was about emancipation from the binding system, allowing individuals free expression with individual personalities.

Anonymity has returned significantly to music with the "digital revolution", where trained helpers are no longer needed to perform pieces - just the composer and software.
Nick_A
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Nick_A »

Greta, leave it alone . The thread is dead. There is no way in this atmosphere that the question of perfection in art and in this case music as it relates to the anonymous in art, can be discussed. It was a nice try IMO and useful for artists but impossible to continue. The thread is dead and should be deleted and time to go back to the usual including the insults.
thedoc
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by thedoc »

I have listened to some of the older music and I agree that there is something special about it. I have heard one base guitarist say that all the good rips used in the rock music are just variations of classical music with the tempo changed. I have also listened to some of the more recent religious music, and some of it sounds like the "composer" sat down with a check list of elements to include in the music, and if he could check all the boxes, it was assumed that the music was good, even if it sounded terrible. Much of the newest music has the sound of being composed to a formula, and not with the idea of composing a good melody. Given this, I can understand why many of the modern composers of religious music, would want to remain anonymous.
sthitapragya
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by sthitapragya »

Nick_A wrote: It isn't a matter of physical abuse but rather the abuse of the psychological need philosophy is intended to serve. As Plato said: Philosophy is the love of wisdom. These people have turned this thread into the intentional abuse of philosophy and the need to "understand" through what certain qualities of music offer. To intentionally come here and abuse the question not to mention attacking you as a kazoo player cannot be tolerated. If the mods do, then the forum is useless for meaningful philosophy. It will then only be good for sharing interpretaions on "Yo momma sucks."
Nick, you seriously cannot blame others for this. All the abuse directed at you is due to the image you yourself have created. You never start a thread without an agenda. Take threads like, " who really is an atheist?" or your "awakening" or "futility of reason" or "why blind denial?" All of these were started not with philosophy in mind, but an agenda which had nothing to do with philosophy and everything to do with putting down atheists. You don't ever show the intent of doing philosophy. Your only intent so far has been to put down people who oppose your views.

Naturally we assumed the same for this thread when you used the word 'anonymous' and didn't define it and on top of that limited the question to religious music. That left the field open for you to pursue whatever agenda you wanted. If your intention was philosophy, then I suppose it is just one of those things where you reap what you sow. Maybe you need to think about that.

There are a lot of theists and atheists here who understand that where they differ is in their belief in God. They understand that we are all equal. You actively discriminate against atheists and equate them with evil. Well, as long as you have that ignorant viewpoint, you will have to bear the brunt of our contempt for you.

You will also have to accept that since we are not mind readers, and you mostly start threads with an agenda, we really cannot assume that you are trying to do philosophy. If you want to do philosophy, you will have to frame your words very carefully so that we see the absence of agenda. Then you will get a civil exchange.

And you really need to stop being a cry baby and learn to take it if you can dish it out. Remember the kind of disgusting abuse you resorted to in the thread "abortion: murder. or is it?" What you did there was the single most disgusting instance of abuse I have seen. If you can stoop to such levels in your hatred against people with a different opinion, you should certainly be able to handle this little crap we give you. So stop whining and take it like a man.
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Harbal
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote:Greta, leave it alone . The thread is dead. There is no way in this atmosphere that the question of perfection in art and in this case music as it relates to the anonymous in art, can be discussed. It was a nice try IMO and useful for artists but impossible to continue. The thread is dead and should be deleted and time to go back to the usual including the insults.
Nick, if you wrote this with a straight face you are not human.
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Harbal
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Harbal »

thedoc wrote:I have listened to some of the older music and I agree that there is something special about it. I have heard one base guitarist say that all the good rips used in the rock music are just variations of classical music with the tempo changed. I have also listened to some of the more recent religious music, and some of it sounds like the "composer" sat down with a check list of elements to include in the music, and if he could check all the boxes, it was assumed that the music was good, even if it sounded terrible. Much of the newest music has the sound of being composed to a formula, and not with the idea of composing a good melody. Given this, I can understand why many of the modern composers of religious music, would want to remain anonymous.
Stop playing with the corpse, doc. Let it go with a bit of dignity.
Nick_A
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by Nick_A »

Sthit wrote in part:
Nick, you seriously cannot blame others for this. All the abuse directed at you is due to the image you yourself have created. You never start a thread without an agenda. Take threads like, " who really is an atheist?" or your "awakening" or "futility of reason" or "why blind denial?" All of these were started not with philosophy in mind, but an agenda which had nothing to do with philosophy and everything to do with putting down atheists. You don't ever show the intent of doing philosophy. Your only intent so far has been to put down people who oppose your views.
Your post is a naive and dangerous emotional rant. It accuses another of a secret agenda and hatred all of which doesn't exist. This misconception in your mind justifies abuse. This same ugly attitude has caused all too many horrors in the world. Disgraceful. If the mods support this, the forum is then only good to argue the ramifications of "Yo momma sucks." Philosophy and human value will have been banished.
thedoc
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by thedoc »

Harbal wrote: Stop playing with the corpse, doc. Let it go with a bit of dignity.
From what I have seen there is no dignity in this thread, so it really doesn't matter what we do with it. I tried to give Nick the opportunity to pursue the topic in a civil manner, ignoring those who only seek to abuse and express their hostility, but it appears that he is more interested in stirring things up to feed his martyr complex. I have found another Peacegirl, but much less sophisticated, in that he doesn't even use his topic to keep things going, he just answers each post in kind, without getting any deeper into the topic.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: The Anonymous in Religious Music

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Nick_A wrote:Sthit wrote in part:
Nick, you seriously cannot blame others for this. All the abuse directed at you is due to the image you yourself have created. You never start a thread without an agenda. Take threads like, " who really is an atheist?" or your "awakening" or "futility of reason" or "why blind denial?" All of these were started not with philosophy in mind, but an agenda which had nothing to do with philosophy and everything to do with putting down atheists. You don't ever show the intent of doing philosophy. Your only intent so far has been to put down people who oppose your views.
Your post is a naive and dangerous emotional rant. It accuses another of a secret agenda and hatred all of which doesn't exist. This misconception in your mind justifies abuse. This same ugly attitude has caused all too many horrors in the world. Disgraceful. If the mods support this, the forum is then only good to argue the ramifications of "Yo momma sucks." Philosophy and human value will have been banished.
Sthit is spot-on. You are the most devious and dishonest poster on here. No one appreciates your sneering contempt for those who don't happen to share your particular superstition, or your lame attempts to hide behing pseudo-profundity. We haven't forgotten your misogynistic little rape fantasies either.
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