What is Art?

What is art? What is beauty?

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Nick_A
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal you are confusing art which communicates deeper objective emotional values with egoistic expressions which seek to spread the expressionist's self deception. These concepts are mutually exclusive.
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Harbal
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote:Harbal you are confusing art which communicates deeper objective emotional values with egoistic expressions which seek to spread the expressionist's self deception. These concepts are mutually exclusive.
I don't know what you mean by objective emotional values. I am not dismissing our emotional responses but I think art has a tendecy to try to sublimate them into something greater than they are. The intention behind a lot of art is not to reveal but rather to manipulate.
Nick_A
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Re: What is Art?

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Harbal, consider the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da Vinci for example. How are you manipulated by it? What are you inspired to do? Who do you want to kill? Yet it is considered great art. Why? I would say that instead of manipulating human motives it raises questions as to what this woman is thinking and feeling. Rather than closing the mind into manipulation, it opens the mind and the emotions into contemplation of deeper questions and values they represent.

Advertising doesn’t do this. The better the superficiality, the more effective the advertising. You want that ass, buy this product. Simple and basic. Regardless of technique it is just not art. It is simple common expression.
Pluto
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Pluto »

The intention behind a lot of art is not to reveal but rather to manipulate.
Could you give an example?

Art does tend to have properties of mystification and ambiguity, though I see this as a strength. To muddy the water of a binary 'yes and no', 'right and wrong', 'black and white'. I think 'manipulate' not the correct word, that word is perfect for describing what marketing and advertising do. Maybe engagement is better, art wishes to engage with the viewer on equal terms, as a good friend.
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Greta
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Greta »

If the creator says a work is intended to be art, then it's art, regardless of quality. The quality of art is another question.
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Harbal
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote:Harbal, consider the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da Vinci for example. How are you manipulated by it? What are you inspired to do? Who do you want to kill? Yet it is considered great art. Why? I would say that instead of manipulating human motives it raises questions as to what this woman is thinking and feeling. Rather than closing the mind into manipulation, it opens the mind and the emotions into contemplation of deeper questions and values they represent.
The Mona Lisa is probably the most famous painting in the World, why do you think that is? How could we possibly know what the woman is thinking or feeling and why should we be particularly interested? What emotions and deeper questions does it open our minds up to?
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Harbal
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Harbal »

Pluto wrote: Could you give an example?
I can't really see greatness in art so I could quite easily pick the wrong example.
I think it would be easier if you gave an example of what you consider to be great art and say why you think it is great. I'll try to explain why I don't think it is.
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Nick_A »

Greta wrote: If the creator says a work is intended to be art, then it's art, regardless of quality.
This is the modern New Age philosophy. You are what you think. Now if a man says he is a woman, he goes in the ladies room and if a woman decides she is a man she goes in the men's room. You are what you think.

If a person claims to be an artist, then they are artists and by definition create art. If a doctor claims to be a doctor or a lawyer claims to be a lawyer, then they are doctors and lawyers. It would be bigoted to object and anyone doing so would be guilty of something ending in ist. Now we are what we think. Peace at last.
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Harbal
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote:
Greta wrote: If the creator says a work is intended to be art, then it's art, regardless of quality.
This is the modern New Age philosophy. You are what you think. Now if a man says he is a woman, he goes in the ladies room and if a woman decides she is a man she goes in the men's room. You are what you think.

If a person claims to be an artist, then they are artists and by definition create art. If a doctor claims to be a doctor or a lawyer claims to be a lawyer, then they are doctors and lawyers. It would be bigoted to object and anyone doing so would be guilty of something ending in ist. Now we are what we think. Peace at last.
Greta is right and your interpretation of the implications of it are plain silly.
uwot
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Re: What is Art?

Post by uwot »

Long story short Nick_A, it's a nearly meaningless term applied to, in most cases, human artefacts, sparingly or liberally, according to the taste of individual you direct the question to.
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Re: What is Art?

Post by uwot »

Long story short Nick_A, it's a nearly meaningless term applied to, in most cases, human artefacts, sparingly or liberally, according to the taste of individual you direct the question to. Haven't you heard?
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Nick_A »

It really is amazing. Atheists here would agree that the purpose of a text book on advanced mathematics is to teach advanced math. This means it must be written in such a way that the person capable of intellectually understanding it can do so.

Art worthy of the name and distinct from expression is the same idea. The difference is that instead of communicating intellectually the artist communicates advanced emotional understanding through their work of art. The math text is capable of direct intellectual communication of higher mathematical understanding. The work of art as opposed to expression is capable of a direct communication of a higher value by opening the mind to contemplation.

But now George Orwell's prediction is coming true. 2+2 is becoming 5 simply because we create our own reality. Call art whatever you like. it is all the same. Who is to say 2+2 isn't 5? Who are you to define what 2 is? It is OK If you want to believe it. It is your truth. If you call yourself a doctor or a lawyer, it is fine. it is your truth. If you call yourself a Christian or a Buddhist it is fine. It is your truth. It is all lovely but unfortunately also idiotic
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Harbal
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote:It really is amazing.
It seems strange that someone who believes as much nonsense as you do finds anything amazing.
uwot
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Re: What is Art?

Post by uwot »

Nick_A wrote:Art worthy of the name and distinct from expression is the same idea.
Who decides what is worthy of the name?
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Greta
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Re: What is Art?

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote:
Greta wrote: If the creator says a work is intended to be art, then it's art, regardless of quality.
This is the modern New Age philosophy. You are what you think. Now if a man says he is a woman, he goes in the ladies room and if a woman decides she is a man she goes in the men's room. You are what you think.

If a person claims to be an artist, then they are artists and by definition create art. If a doctor claims to be a doctor or a lawyer claims to be a lawyer, then they are doctors and lawyers. It would be bigoted to object and anyone doing so would be guilty of something ending in ist. Now we are what we think. Peace at last.
No, it's not a new age notion, it's logic. Where do you draw the line between art and non-art? Everyone has their own idea of what is art and what isn't. Further we all have our own ideas of good art and bad art.

To be a lawyer or doctor you must obtain degrees and then earn the right to work in the field through assessment of practical experience to be registered. If such an approach was applied to, say, music we would not have any of the original jazz artists, the great blues artists or classic rock legends. We'd still be listening to tired orchestras covering Beethoven's Fifth.

Where you make the mistake is conferring status to the label "artist". There is only status there for the egotistical and naive. Artist just says what a person does. It's up to others to determine the quality of her or his work.

Your comments belittling transsexuals are ignorant and wrong, Nick. You have no idea what they go through. Do you think Caitlin Jenner is representative of them? Do you think they wake up and decide to get parts added or lopped off? Getting beaten up and ridiculed in restrooms is just one of their problems. Be grateful you are not one of them and show a little heart.

I've seen transwomen in restrooms and it bothers me not a bit. What did they do? It appeared they were engaged in going to the toilet, washing their hands and applying makeup. Same as what I do, sans makeup. Let's just stick to art and leave attacks of vulnerable people aside.

When I first started posting on philosophy forums I naively expected a higher-than-usual measure of wisdom. Yet there always seems to be far more misogyny and homophobia on the forums than I ever saw in the workplace, or even on musician forums. You'd expect philosophers to be the wiser but it seems that philosophy forum members have a broad spread of psyches - from the calm, wise and learned to bigots and lunatics.

It's ignorant comments like yours that make me want to quit philosophy forums and just do a blog. I'm disappointed. I thought you were bigger than that.
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