Alt-Right Art

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:30 am

Viveka wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:12 am
Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:51 am
Viveka wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 pm
If racism is so great, then what's the difference between a Zionist racist against non-Jews and a White-supremacist against Jews? Which one is right?
Seems they're basically equivalent which is why organizations that support White nationalism and also Zionism, such as Brietbart, can exist. I would go even further and say that the formation of Israel redirected Jewish intelligence towards nationalism and away from the previous investment in internationalism, this is probably a significant factor is the global shift towards rightism.
But according to racism, they can't both be right. There has to be a superior race.
That's not what racism means. That's the slandered definition advanced by imperialists who for thousands of years have appreciated very clearly that nationalism is the enemy of imperial domination. Frrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeddddooommmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The exact opposite is the case. All nationalities are stronger when we support each other against empire.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 am

Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:45 am
The problem is, you haven't used any quotes
What in hell's name are you talking about? Do you just live in your own little world, and you get to selectively choose what to see in ours? First you said I didn't give a link, now you're telling me that the real problem is that I didn't give any quotes - but if you actually clicked on the video I linked you to, you would have seen that everything I said was about him giving a speech, which is pretty much the dictionary definition of what a 'quote' is.
Instead you've used weasel words: "nuances" or "suggest" to misrepresent Spencer. He no where says at the link, as you insinuate, "more about racial segregation", nor as you go on to repeatedly claim: "eugenics". That's called strawman.
Straw-manning someone, is responding to an argument your opponent never made, FYI - and not merely misrepresenting someone else's position or belief.

But no, I very specifically said "in other places goes on to suggest more about racial segregation". I mean, I think going on about how much you want to preserve white culture, and the white identity doesn't exactly bode well for your views against segregation and the racial identitarianism responsible for it - but frankly, your insinuation that he's not for segregation is pretty downright retarded, because that's not even something he would deny. I mean, he has openly stood against interracial relationships for the past few years, considering his own interest in asian women to be a vice - but more to the point - he believes in a fucking white ethno-state, and is admittedly comfortable with being called a 'white nationalist'. It actually sounds to me like you're the one trying to weasel out of Spencer's actual position, by brushing off any accusation of racism, or anything that could be interpreted as such.

You're better off owning up to it than trying to water everything down. You're just starting to parody what you're accusing me of. Just be like, "Hell, yeah, I'm a racist piece of shit, who's going to hold himself back from that sweet asian pussy - and I'm damn proud of it!". Really, I think that's the best way to show your support for Spencer.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:19 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 am
Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:45 am
The problem is, you haven't used any quotes
What in hell's name are you talking about? Do you just live in your own little world, and you get to selectively choose what to see in ours? First you said I didn't give a link, now you're telling me that the real problem is that I didn't give any quotes - but if you actually clicked on the video I linked you to, you would have seen that everything I said was about him giving a speech, which is pretty much the dictionary definition of what a 'quote' is.
Instead you've used weasel words: "nuances" or "suggest" to misrepresent Spencer. He no where says at the link, as you insinuate, "more about racial segregation", nor as you go on to repeatedly claim: "eugenics". That's called strawman.
Straw-manning someone, is responding to an argument your opponent never made, FYI - and not merely misrepresenting someone else's position or belief.

But no, I very specifically said "in other places goes on to suggest more about racial segregation". I mean, I think going on about how much you want to preserve white culture, and the white identity doesn't exactly bode well for your views against segregation and the racial identitarianism responsible for it - but frankly, your insinuation that he's not for segregation is pretty downright retarded, because that's not even something he would deny. I mean, he has openly stood against interracial relationships for the past few years, considering his own interest in asian women to be a vice - but more to the point - he believes in a fucking white ethno-state, and is admittedly comfortable with being called a 'white nationalist'. It actually sounds to me like you're the one trying to weasel out of Spencer's actual position, by brushing off any accusation of racism, or anything that could be interpreted as such.

You're better off owning up to it than trying to water everything down. You're just starting to parody what you're accusing me of. Just be like, "Hell, yeah, I'm a racist piece of shit, who's going to hold himself back from that sweet asian pussy - and I'm damn proud of it!". Really, I think that's the best way to show your support for Spencer.
The problem is I clicked on the (second) video link and what you are saying Spencer said and what he indeed said are not the same thing. You started off with segregation and eugenics and the quote you have from him is him say he is comfortable with being called a White nationalist. In the (first) video link he's saying something like pull up you bootstraps and have some pride. Totally different obviously.

And anyway, so what if he supports a White ethnostate? There's already about 50 of them. Something like three-quarters of a billion people live happily in White ethnostates.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:14 am

Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:19 am
The problem is I clicked on the (second) video link and what you are saying Spencer said and what he indeed said are not the same thing.
"White nationalist is the term I'm most comfortable with" doesn't mean he's comfortable with being considered a white nationalist? I mean, you could make a case for that, I just don't think you'd make that case very well.
You started off with segregation and eugenics and the quote you have from him is him say he is comfortable with being called a White nationalist. In the (first) video link he's saying something like pull up you bootstraps and have some pride. Totally different obviously.
The first video was to demonstrate that he (or the alt-right) is a white identitarian (movement) I clearly made it a point to say that the reason I believe he's a racial eugenicist and believes in segregation is not solely based on that video - though, as I admitted, what's being said by adhering to white identitarianism doesn't bode well as a predictor for those beliefs.
And anyway, so what if he supports a White ethnostate?
There are lot of things wrong with nationalism based on race, but we're talking about racial segregation. Why do you deny that Spencer is for segregation, when he himself admits to being a white nationalist who wants a white ethno-state? It doesn't even sound like you're defending the guy, it sounds like you're sugarcoating his actual position.
There's already about 50 of them. Something like three-quarters of a billion people live happily in White ethnostates.
Uhhh, what? Because the majority of the US states are comprised mostly of white people? Yeah, that's not what an 'ethno-state' is, and it's certainly not his ethno-state.

I'm also a bit confused by your quite literal translation, here; People don't typically mean a literal US state, like a territory, when they're referring to an 'ethno-state'.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:08 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:14 am
Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:19 am
the reason I believe he's a racial eugenicist and believes in segregation is not solely based on that video -
I suppose it wouldn't be since he said no such thing...
And anyway, so what if he supports a White ethnostate?
There are lot of things wrong with nationalism based on race, but we're talking about racial segregation. Why do you deny that Spencer is for segregation, when he himself admits to being a white nationalist who wants a white ethno-state? It doesn't even sound like you're defending the guy, it sounds like you're sugarcoating his actual position.
No. He's not talking about a White race, he's talking about ethnolinguistic nationalism, he uses "White" to mean culture, language, spiritual tradition and so on. Race and culture do tend to be correlated of course.
There's already about 50 of them. Something like three-quarters of a billion people live happily in White ethnostates.
Uhhh, what? Because the majority of the US states are comprised mostly of white people? Yeah, that's not what an 'ethno-state' is, and it's certainly not his ethno-state.

I'm also a bit confused by your quite literal translation, here; People don't typically mean a literal US state, like a territory, when they're referring to an 'ethno-state'.
You must be an American to have taken the sentence that way. I'm talking about Armenia, Albania, Georgia, Greece, Russia, Portugal and so on: White ethno-states.

Everyone pretty much agrees that eugenics in the sense of genocides, sterilizations, transportation and concentration camps is not cool, no doubt Spencer included. Spencer isn't a Nazi. He's just like you, a guy who doesn't want his country turned into the 3rd World by mass (im)migration.

I guess what must have happened is you bought into all the imperial propaganda and don't realize that White nationalist actually refers to good decent people like you or Richard Spencer. If the imperialists are going to win, it's most important that they take down the White nationalists, since that's where the bulk of the power is, the Laotian nationalists, the Cambodian nationalists, even the Arab nationalists are of course a threat to their plans for domination but obviously not quite so serious.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:21 am

It is hard to fit the US into the mold of a Ethno-State, we have had a wide variety of people immigrating here for centuries.

This being said, outside a extreme few situations, most states do allow some sort of qualified immigration. Most people supporting Trump who are pro-wall are not opposed to immigration under set parameters. We are not stupid, we know someone has to pick the berries.

In my case, I've been pro wall since the 90s. I'm a fortification buff, studied it as a teenager. It made a lot of sense to me to resolve many of the aspects of the war on drugs as well as cartel issues in Mexico causing a lot of death and destruction, as well as slowing growth. Wall doesn't hurt anything except your pride, and if it hurts that, you should reexamine the underlining basis of your pride or nationalism, it is built on a weak foundation if it centers on the divine right of your people to sneak into another country and undermine it's economy while providing drug cartels routes to do violence on both sides of the border. You should find something else.

A lot of countries has walls, I started a thread on another site listing all the walls by nations, and gave up listing walls in Central Asia, a lot exist all over. Some countries with general good relations, essentially the same "race" like Malaysia and Thailand slapped up walls between each other, producing a border with walls on either side. They didn't hate one another, just wanted to control the drug and gangs operating on either side. They've been streamlining this process.

If someone saw my white face, blue eyes, and started shrieking "alt right" upon mentioning this, would be most likely ignorant of my past. I was born in Mexican areas of California (lived in San Andreas, California for a while) and had a Mexican godfather, am Catholic myself, and my best friend as a kid before school was named Raphael. I'm unlikely to fit the status of a racist, but my white privledged face gives me away as the sum of all evils. I honestly don't look at society race first, I'm a state ethicist first and foremost, worried about the foundation and survival of a society. People around are the people you have, in the US, my area especially, it is mixed. Was always multiple races here since day one (thanks to the most northern form of racial slavery, literally the most northern spot you could have it).

A lot of the original racial issues have died off, they get stirred up on occasion from outside on ideological reasons, but if you listened to the culture here amongst the most racist of blacks, they mostly quote Dave Chapelle (he lives not to distant near Cincinnati). But this is my point, it is mostly perpetuated by the media where I am, and it gets discarded most of the day. I hear a lot more of racism than I actually see it, and the idea of carving a Ethno-State out of my area would be silly. You would have to get a very loose interpretation of what it means to be a race or enthnicity here. Even the families from places like Greece and Russia who migrated a century ago is often only half Greek, and someone converted. It is Church based as much as nationalism. I call myself German, have a very German looking name, but I can claim a lot of races. My ancestors have been frontier people for centuries here. I also have some New England blue blood, a considerable chunk of America does as well (thanks to Salem, Massachettues, a few nobles came over, made lots of babies, we have a heavy dose spread across our genome).

If it comes down to culture, I don't care much for culture. I'm observant of culture enough to blend in and hide. Try not to stand out too much, attract too much attention. If everyone wore a potato on their head, then I would despise the potato, but wear it, in situations I just don't want confrontation or attracting police attention. I'm pro-survival, so being invisible holds a lot of value to me, even if my instinct and temperament contradicts this sometimes.

I could fit into a Leave It To Beaver culture I guess. Comes off as oppressively communistic. I don't mind pretending, just in passing, but I'll be damned if I gotta do it 24/7. I really hate code enforcers mandating you cut grass, and we can't concrete over the grass.... we gotta maintain it cause some fruity little farts just after WW2 got it in their head to have a English garden infront of every home, and everyone was excited to go out, buy a mower, and cut it. Oh... seriously, fuck that. I'm farming a useless vegetable, can't eat it, waste of time and money. I'm guessing that is like, 1/4th of American White Nationalism? Another is wearing suits all the time, with hats? Big part of me is like, why not all dress like a clown instead, we can all be fucking clowns. Chanel and Hermes can have elite clown costumes, while Macy's sell middle class clown costumes, and local department stores can provide stupid cheap clown costumes for the lower classs.

I really don't care. Just read the constitution, read history, know how to make food that is fairly palatable to the local population if you are opening a restaurant, and speak English if you are moving here. You can be a Buddhist, Hindu, Baha'i, etc.... just don't eat me, sacrifice my cat.

Culture needs to take care of itself and not demand I pay constant homage to it. I take what is useful, attractive, decent and wise. The rest, I'm indifferent to, or hold in abhorrence.

I gives a fuck about culture, I'm who I am genetically, don't like it, tough, I didn't ask you for permission to exist. Most Trump supporters allow for some level of immigration, even if it is just marriage, or legal registered seasonal workers on a Ad Hoc basis, etc. I have never supported unlimited immigration, open borders, nor amnesty without a wall, and I've had this position for a very long time, before it was popular. I came to it on my own.

I do, as a philosopher, have the right to have a mixture of liberal and conservative traits. If I don't understand a political belief, I seek it out. I lived in San Francisco for a long time, listening to silly people explain their ideas. I try to figure out things on my own.

I doubt Spencer has any pull in my area. Wouldn't be surprise if I could shake a few supporters out if I really tried, but suspect I could get a lot more Green or Marxists out than them. I'm more likely to find some racial slurs bouncing around on a Saturday night at the bar, because drunk people want to make a scene, but most aren't going to be consistently racist come Monday. People sorta get along here, as well as one can expect for a rather poor community just now returning to prosperity. It isn't a utopia here, it isn't Star Trek, but it isn't like it was 60 or 70 years ago. It is people, living, get in their way, they will sock you one in the eye, regardless if you look like them or not. That's who we are, if you want a cultural label.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:25 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:08 am
No. He's not talking about a White race, he's talking about ethnolinguistic nationalism, he uses "White" to mean culture, language, spiritual tradition and so on. Race and culture do tend to be correlated of course.
I think you're under an illusion of your own creation. It's pretty safe to guess, that when he's talking about preserving white people and white culture, he's not just talking about white culture. As I said, he is a racial identitarianist, which typically does associate a lot more to race than the mere color of your skin, and I can see why such a defense would be convenient to hold back criticism. It doesn't mean what he believes isn't racist, but mostly I just think your observation here is off.
You must be an American to have taken the sentence that way.
I took it that way because you mentioned 50 states, and I originally thought you said a 'third' of a billion, and not 'three-quarters' of a billion, so forget about it.
I guess what must have happened is you bought into all the imperial propaganda and don't realize that White nationalist actually refers to good decent people like you or Richard Spencer
Mostly I think it's you who's bought into Spencer's own propaganda, because yes, he does have a tendency to speak in this way that doesn't outwardly sound like he's talking about race. It would be easier to make the case that he isn't technically a neo-nazi, but I don't think he's exactly helped his own case with that.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:56 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:25 pm
identitarianist
So these guys are supposed to be bad guys too? Yeah right.

https://identitarian-movement.org/

Sign up today! Defend Europe!
he does have a tendency to speak in this way that doesn't outwardly sound like he's talking about race.
Maybe because he isn't? White as you no doubt agree is a social construct.

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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:21 am

Seleucus wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:56 am
So these guys are supposed to be bad guys too?
I don't know what it is you linked me to, or how it really relates to what we're talking about.
White as you no doubt agree is a social construct.
Not really. I mean, the concept of race isn't something that has as much scientific qualification as racial supremacists would like to believe. It's not really guaranteed, for example, that I am any less of (original) African descent than Barrack Obama, despite the fact that he's considered half-black and I'm not. For various other issues, "Race" is not really a scientific term with exact qualifications, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any actual qualifications to the layman. But honestly, I've never really thought about it. I'm not completely sure how it relates to our discussion.

If you're not bought into my impression about spencer, I suggest you look into some of his statements on 'race mixing'. Or maybe you'll be completely okay with it.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:25 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:21 am
Seleucus wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:56 am
So these guys are supposed to be bad guys too?
I don't know what it is you linked me to, or how it really relates to what we're talking about.
No clue how your use of identitarianist as a pejorative would connect with a link to the Identitarian movement?

https://identitarian-movement.org/

I'm proud of my identity and I have every right to be!

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:56 pm

In fairness, a great majority of our terms don't have nearly the scope that "race" does, but we use them unquestionably. I don't view it as a smart argument to nitpick the use of the word race as a nonracist defence. They generally are attacking some or many aspects of another race when they denounce it. This much is obvious, and pretending the word isn't really there, is a linguistic abberation isn't helping to resolve the situation at all, just adds a bizarre linguistic twist to the whole mess, something we can do without, as no racist ever has been convinced to stop being a racist by questioning the proper use and origins of the word race. At best, they may redefine themselves, as coining a term takes.... oh.... 3 seconds.

And yeah, the little bit I know of Spencer from this thread suggests he isn't of the American branch of the Neo-Nazis, but that American branch did fracture a bit several decades ago. The mainline are Neo-Nazis Spiritualists who half the time refuse to even be identified as Nazis, bought a facility up in New Bern after they closed down their D.C. Headquarters. Rest are your skin heads, running around, setting up clubs with flags and toy soldiers reenacting battles from the Confederacy and WW2. These groups break up and come into being, and mix with other groups so often it is near impossible to track them, and I don't particularly care to figure out how legitimate they are.... they are usually a bunch of poor methheads and half have criminal records, they just want a social club to join cause they have no friends. Not much, other than even lower intelligence and a criminal record, separates them from the Masons. I seriously doubt even 10% have great philosophical insights into their movement's history, and stay up at night pondering the great questions at the heart of the ideology, trying to resolve and push the platform foreward.

No, they want to salute, have a stupid flag, a barbecue, and collectively mock a black person walking by.... one they have to serve come Monday once they get back to work as a cashier.

Had Hitler never existed, they would of gone with something else. They aren't feeling like they are fully fledged members of society succeeding, so go looking for a alternative.

I don't much track Neo-Nazis outside America, as I don't care, only know of them from what I have to know from members on other sites, and haven't looked into it for a while. I'm guessing Neo-Nazis in Europe are white trash as well though, looking back to a Golden Age they don't know much about other than some cool uniforms and a few propaganda pieces saying they got rid of X, so we can be Y.... and they buy into it.

Nazis were more intellectually complex at their height. They ranged from Hitler's Nietzschean beliefs to Heidegger (people read Heidegger, failing to find anything Nazis about it, when the failure is to grasp the intellectual complexity of the Reich, Heidegger was pure Nazis, his work is pure Nazis, he supported the Reich until he got butt hurt from a falling out, which coincidentally is a very Nazis thing to do).

I try not to water or change the historical complexity of a past Empire or civilization just because it makes me feel better. Nazis had a lot going for them. Our university system, beliefs of your liberal professors, are a direct inheritance from them. They had a great effect on our civilization, and their own. I still fully support the US/Soviet effort to smash the Nazis Empire into smithereens, for however intellectual fascism can be, it was a very rotten system built ultimately on genocide and the persecution onto death of all religion save for Neo-Pagan beliefs. It was a nasty little Nietzschean Empire, that the Hegelians of the east and the Capitalists of the west united together to smash. We are a few generations away from being removed enough from them to understand them objectively though, given how entrenched their ideals are in academia. It isn't a coincidence abortion is so very, very widespread, absurdly higher in some countries alone than all the deaths from every war being waged and raged on the planet. A lot more people could have the title of Neo-Nazis placed on them, given they are fully inline with aspects of the Nazis agenda, even though they think they are the furthest from it one can be, and will fly around like little screechy sirens denouncing anyone as a Nazi. Such a Nazi thing to do, just a change of name.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 am

One of the most important alt-right art pieces of our time: https://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw

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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 am

Seleucus wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 am
One of the most important alt-right art pieces of our time: https://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw
Oi vei.


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