Secular Spirituality

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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta »

marjoram_blues wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:44 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:09 pm Marjoram-Blues wrote:
I think there is a suggestion of playing the devil's advocate.
A useful tool to enable further clarification of thought for the sake of debate.
I agree that devil's advocate is a useful tool.
Yeah, I noticed already.
My sweet honey-tongued spirit medium and guide told me to look out for angels bearing forks :evil: :)
:lol: The armour of your dharma saves your karma from the embalmer!
marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality - with nod to Rick and team

Post by marjoram_blues »

What have 'spiritual exercises' got to do with philosophy?

Continuing the theme of exploring the goals of philosophy and Solomon's suggestion that 'secular spirituality' might be the ultimate one.

For an overview on philosophy:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Here, I found an entry on Pierre Hadot:
..The philosophy teacher's discourse could be presented in such a way that the disciple, as auditor, reader, or interlocutor, could make spiritual progress and transform himself within."[7]

Hadot shows that the key to understanding the original philosophical impulse is to be found in Socrates.

What characterizes Socratic therapy above all is the importance given to living contact between human beings.

Hadot's recurring theme is that philosophy in antiquity was characterized by a series of spiritual exercises intended to transform the perception, and therefore the being, of those who practice it; that philosophy is best pursued in real conversation and not through written texts and lectures; and that philosophy, as it is taught in universities today, is for the most part a distortion of its original, therapeutic impulse. He brings these concerns together in What Is Ancient Philosophy?,[7] which has been critically reviewed.[8]'
So, is it the case that philosophy is best pursued in real conversation...and is academic philosophy a distortion of its original therapeutic impulse?

And what kind of 'spiritual exercises' were undertaken to transform perception and the being of practising philosophers ?

For starters:
'The four stages of the spiritual exercises are: learning to live, learning to dialogue, learning to die and lastly learning to read' from:

https://mikeysmetaphysics.wordpress.com ... rre-hadot/

I am not sure that this resource is the best interpretation, only that it was the first I found.
I disagree with the final conclusion about reading.

'Once we view every philosophical writing as a dialogue then we start to live, dialogue and die, thus making philosophy a way of life, a life geared towards the True and the Good, free from passions, desires, fears, free to be united to nature.'

Why this need to be free from passions ?

-----------

Another take on academic v nonacademic philosophy, with follow-up questions/ objections and replies:
Dear Earlier Self,

I am writing this to you as you are taking your first philosophy courses in college. You are seventeen, a freshman in college and you are trying to make sense of it all: what is academic philosophy and how does it relate to the broader society. I am now thirty-seven, went through academic philosophy as a student and a professor, and I am trying to make sense of it all. Perhaps what I say might be helpful to you...

http://theroughground.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... sophy.html
-----------

You know what, given the above and the complaint that there is no common intellectual space:
' Why did this transition happen in the last two centuries? Where did the shared, public intellectual space go? '

I have come to a new appreciation of Rick Lewis who followed his dream to create 'Philosophy Now' - the magazine and 'pub'.
Congratulations, to him and all the team. You have your place in history :D
Have fun at Saturday's Festival !
https://philosophynow.org/festival

May the spirit and passion of Elvis be with you 8) :wink:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xA142IsjQiE
fooloso4
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by fooloso4 »

marjoram_blues:
… Pierre Hadot ....
Hadot’s "Philosophy as a Way of Life", "What is Ancient Philosophy", and "The Inner Citadel: The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius" are helpful for seeing philosophy as therapeutic and transformative practice, an aspect of philosophy that has been occluded by a narrow focus on rationality and the idea that truth is impersonal. This is, however, not merely a matter of historical interest. Wittgenstein, for example, was aware of the spiritual, therapeutic, and transformative dimension of philosophy. Frege'sdogmatic rejection of psychologism is now no longer universally accepted by analytic philosophers as an obvious truth. There is a growing acknowledgement that philosophy as abstraction from human being in the service to Truth is fundamentally wrong, that philosophy is essentially grounded in human life. I see this not as a matter of academic versus non-academic philosophy but as a possibility for a correction within academic philosophy. Works by Princeton professor of philosophy Alexander Nehamas, such as "The Art of Living: Socratic Reflections from Plato to Foucault" and "On Friendship" might be signposts for the direction of academic philosophy, or they might be disregarded as wooly-headed and soft, literature not philosophy, and this too might be seen as a signpost, a sign of philosophy’s inability to self-correct, of its increasing narrowness and irrelevance.
marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues »

fooloso4 wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:34 pm marjoram_blues:
… Pierre Hadot ....
Hadot’s "Philosophy as a Way of Life", "What is Ancient Philosophy", and "The Inner Citadel: The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius" are helpful for seeing philosophy as therapeutic and transformative practice, an aspect of philosophy that has been occluded by a narrow focus on rationality and the idea that truth is impersonal. This is, however, not merely a matter of historical interest. Wittgenstein, for example, was aware of the spiritual, therapeutic, and transformative dimension of philosophy. Frege'sdogmatic rejection of psychologism is now no longer universally accepted by analytic philosophers as an obvious truth. There is a growing acknowledgement that philosophy as abstraction from human being in the service to Truth is fundamentally wrong, that philosophy is essentially grounded in human life. I see this not as a matter of academic versus non-academic philosophy but as a possibility for a correction within academic philosophy. Works by Princeton professor of philosophy Alexander Nehamas, such as "The Art of Living: Socratic Reflections from Plato to Foucault" and "On Friendship" might be signposts for the direction of academic philosophy, or they might be disregarded as wooly-headed and soft, literature not philosophy, and this too might be seen as a signpost, a sign of philosophy’s inability to self-correct, of its increasing narrowness and irrelevance.
Thank you so much for this.
I have read and love Marcus Aurelius.
Stoicism appeals to me, as does anything which helps point the way to what you describe as:
' the spiritual, therapeutic and transformative dimension of philosophy'.

Yes, it was unfortunate that I set the issue in opposing terms. The versus was a lazy shortcut.
There are benefits in studying philosophy at an academic level, as you know.
I am thinking of the analytical tools; the process of learning to read and write carefully, concisely and coherently. And there are modules relating to the human condition. So, it's not all dry and irrelevant.

How can philosophy self-correct ? The content or syllabus could change...
I am not even sure what is currently studied, or its main focus.
Is it the same old, same old. But what is wrong with that, if it is the basis for discussion on current events. I'm thinking ethics in politics - I would imagine that America is a hot topic, right now ?!
marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues »

Following up one of fooloso4's recommendations, Alexander Nehamas - not the book but a 12 minute mp3

http://philosophybites.libsyn.com/alexa ... friendship

--------------


Then there is this:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/friendship/
Blocks of solid text.

Perhaps it is not so much the content as the medium of a philosophical notion which attracts modern would-be scholars or learners ?
Philosophy Now in addition to the magazine, this forum and a presence on Facebook ( I don't go there ! ) has its podcasts.
There are probably a gazillion youtube videos out there related to whatever aspect of philosophy takes your fancy.
Ease of access to all...is that not now improved ?
Is Philosophy really in trouble ?
Last edited by marjoram_blues on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nick_A
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Nick_A »

When you remember that esoteric spirituality recognizes a source for creation including human meaning and purpose within it while secular spirituality has the Great Beast as its god, it clarifies why there is no common intellectual space.

When people as a whole begin to experience their nothingness and hypocrisy in the light of conscious human potential, it supports the collective questions of who we are why it is so. When the Great Beast becomes god, it tells us who we are and that we have reached the apex of human consciousness so the deeper questions are meaningless. The only thing important is the life of the Beast The only thing to discuss is political correctness and to participate in the struggle of who achieves power for teaching the “truth” of the Beast. Simone Weil provides a wonderful description of human potential when the Great Beast is not worshiped as God.
"The combination of these two facts — the longing in the depth of the heart for absolute good, and the power, though only latent, of directing attention and love to a reality beyond the world and of receiving good from it — constitutes a link which attaches every man without exception to that other reality.

Whoever recognizes that reality recognizes also that link. Because of it, he holds every human being without any exception as something sacred to which he is bound to show respect.

This is the only possible motive for universal respect towards all human beings. Whatever formulation of belief or disbelief a man may choose to make, if his heart inclines him to feel this respect, then he in fact also recognizes a reality other than this world's reality. Whoever in fact does not feel this respect is alien to that other reality also." ~ Simone Weil
Of course as the Great Beast grows in its power and influence, humility and the inner appreciation of our place within creation lessens. Pride and vanity become dominant influences. There can only be the struggle for prestige opposing common intellectual and emotional space which stands in opposition to the intent of the dialectic and degenerates it into the pursuit of politically correct lies reconciling philosophical discussion. It is called progress.
Reflex
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Reflex »

marjoram_blues wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:45 pm
Reflex wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm
marjoram_blues wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:55 am

It's not an oxymoron. You would recognize this if you make time and effort to read and reflect rather than reflexively react.
That answers my question. :mrgreen:

Note: I didn’t say a secular person can’t also be spiritual, but secularism is not spiritual by definition. But it seems clarity doesn’t matter nowadays so long as everyone is in agreement. :roll:

Clarity always matters, especially on a philosophy forum where not everyone is in agreement with their understanding or interpretation of a word or concept.
My response to you was accurate re the term 'secular spirituality' not being an oxymoron.
Your response is to turn green, roll your eyes and change focus.
Oxymorons like "spiritual secularism" do that to me. I think it's a way secularists have of making themselves feel better about themselves -- a way of alleviating of their existential angst.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Conde Lucanor »

Greta wrote: Are Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Max Tegmark and Roger Penrose new agers? If so, then I agree with you that New Age romanticism and secular spirituality are synonymous. Seriously, why paint with such a broad brush? I thought you'd be more rigorous.
At least the 3 first names, which I'm more familiar with, can hardly be said to have embraced anything close to the "secular spirituality" described in the Wikipedia entry referenced in the OP. I mean, Carl Sagan, for goodness' sake!! The man is on record speaking against New Age thinking and pseudoscience. That does not mean Dawkins and other outspoken critics of religion are against the concept of spirituality from a humanist, secular perspective. Neither do I. It's just that I don't see any critical thinker subscribing to views from Osho or any orher type of Eastern syncretism. There have been, anyway, other types of secular religions proposed without these so called "spiritual" elements. And many ritual elements found in traditional religions are somehow found in other modern, more diversified cultural forms, so it's not like you have to choose a religious umbrella to experience them.
Greta wrote: Whatever humanity is, it's far closer to eusocial organisation than any other organisational model. Neither you nor Dubious will be able to point to any organisational model in nature that is even nearly as close to the way humans organise themselves as eusociality. Basically, humanity is developing an extension of eusociality.
Eusociality and sociality might have things in common, just like agency in the paramecium might have something in common with human agency, but humans cannot be reduced to parameciums. There are quite distinct properties and variables determining human behavioral patterns, which make us different from bees, ants and termites. And that's why humans today are different than humans 3000 years ago, while insects remain unchanged. They don't have a history.
Greta wrote: Whatever, the point is that diversity is needed in a society that organises itself so people of different temperaments are needed, including those who think everyone should be more like them :)
Sure, I never doubt diversity is the way the go, but I'm also aware of the ways people can be cheated into believing they are moving forward and immersed in diversity, in other words, fooled by the appearance of difference, while they are actually made to fit certain limited patterns of culture, which can be conveniently handled by those in power (or those who want to make sure you buy what they want you to buy). That's exactly what happens with this "secular spirituality" thing, just another watered-down version of traditional religions, perfectly aligned with the modern comfortable tendency to be the same, but look differently, with as little effort as possible. All this solved in the sphere of consumption.
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Conde Lucanor
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Conde Lucanor »

marjoram_blues wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:05 am
There is no sense in which I started this discussion with a view to 'endorse a [particular] type of secularism'. There seems to be an instinct to attack any interest in this aspect of the human condition with false accusations.
There is no attack on materialism as suggested.
Once you plant the seed, you can't stop its growth. The topic evolves and as long as we don't digress out of topic , there's no reason to be alarmed.
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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:05 pm
Greta wrote: Are Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Max Tegmark and Roger Penrose new agers? If so, then I agree with you that New Age romanticism and secular spirituality are synonymous. Seriously, why paint with such a broad brush? I thought you'd be more rigorous.
At least the 3 first names, which I'm more familiar with, can hardly be said to have embraced anything close to the "secular spirituality" described in the Wikipedia entry referenced in the OP. I mean, Carl Sagan, for goodness' sake!! The man is on record speaking against New Age thinking and pseudoscience.
Marj and I could not have made it more clear that secular spirituality need have nothing whatsoever to do with pseudoscience. Your response above is very weak, displaying mechanistic thinking and a general lack of comprehension. There is not much point wasting time unless you can lift your game.
marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:13 pm
marjoram_blues wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:05 am
There is no sense in which I started this discussion with a view to 'endorse a [particular] type of secularism'. There seems to be an instinct to attack any interest in this aspect of the human condition with false accusations.
There is no attack on materialism as suggested.
Once you plant the seed, you can't stop its growth. The topic evolves and as long as we don't digress out of topic , there's no reason to be alarmed.
No alarm here.
So, calm down dear.
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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:05 pm
Greta wrote:Whatever humanity is, it's far closer to eusocial organisation than any other organisational model. Neither you nor Dubious will be able to point to any organisational model in nature that is even nearly as close to the way humans organise themselves as eusociality. Basically, humanity is developing an extension of eusociality.
Eusociality and sociality might have things in common, just like agency in the paramecium might have something in common with human agency, but humans cannot be reduced to parameciums.
An inappropriate analogy that misses the point. A chimp would have been a better example because the difference between human social structures and those of other other eusocial animals is not great.

Or do you think humans operate more like a pride of lions or a herd of gazelle, or like a bacterial colony? Or are they more like an ant or bee colony? We are clearly eusocial - no other model is even remotely close. It is no surprise that, as with everything humans do, we extend on that which other animals do.
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Greta wrote:Whatever, the point is that diversity is needed in a society that organises itself so people of different temperaments are needed, including those who think everyone should be more like them :)
Sure, I never doubt diversity is the way the go, but I'm also aware of the ways people can be cheated into believing they are moving forward and immersed in diversity, in other words, fooled by the appearance of difference...
Yes, that can happen. However, not in this case unless you want to suggest that I am a crystal-waving fucktard again.
Last edited by Greta on Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Greta
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by Greta »

For those at a back of the classroom who may have missed some earlier comments:
... I see spirituality as everyday, something that all but the most damaged routinely engage in. Kindness, consideration, amiability, cooperativeness, empathising, nurturing, defending, supporting, entertaining, listening, appreciating, passionate enthusiasm - these are all spiritual behaviours IMO. Unlike religions, I don't think about any gate that determines X to be a spiritual person or Y not, aside from the worst psychopathies and those who are too wounded to feel happiness.
No crystals. No homoeopathy. No chakras, aura cleansing, anti-vaxxing, anti-GMO or anti-science. No religion. No nuns, priests, ministers, rabbis or imams. No churches, creeds, cults, or even ideologies. No pseudoscience. Whatsoever.

Conde, do you understand now?
marjoram_blues
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by marjoram_blues »

Greta wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:20 pm For those at a back of the classroom who may have missed some earlier comments:
... I see spirituality as everyday, something that all but the most damaged routinely engage in. Kindness, consideration, amiability, cooperativeness, empathising, nurturing, defending, supporting, entertaining, listening, appreciating, passionate enthusiasm - these are all spiritual behaviours IMO. Unlike religions, I don't think about any gate that determines X to be a spiritual person or Y not, aside from the worst psychopathies and those who are too wounded to feel happiness.
No crystals. No homoeopathy. No chakras, aura cleansing, anti-vaxxing, anti-GMO or anti-science. No religion. No nuns, priests, ministers, rabbis or imams. No churches, creeds, cults, or even ideologies. No pseudoscience. Whatsoever.

Conde, do you understand now?
And again,from page 1:
'Solomon describes his book as a search 'for nonreligious, noninstitutional, nontheological, nonscriptural,nonexclusive sense of spirituality, which is not based on Belief [with a capital 'B' ], which is not dogmatic, which is not antiscience, which is not otherworldly,[and] which is not uncritical or cultist or kinky.'

Solomon prefers the term 'naturalized spiritulality', and provides his 'summary Hallmark-card phrase, 'spirituality as the thoughtful love of life'.
fooloso4
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Re: Secular Spirituality

Post by fooloso4 »

Marjoram_blues:
How can philosophy self-correct ? The content or syllabus could change…
In my opinion, most importantly, by a recognition of the centrality of what is often derisively called psycholism and lived experience.I am not prone to use the word 'spiritualism' because in order to be understood one must first dig out from the layers of sediment that have accumulated, and even when one has gone through the effort, as some posts here make clear, the term is still obstinately and willfully misunderstood; but having said that, the self-correction can come about through the work of Solomon, Hadot, Nehamas, and others.
I am not even sure what is currently studied, or its main focus.
It varies from school to school and even from class to class. As in other fields, some change comes about when the old guard begins to retire, prevailing views are chipped away at but sometimes swept away. The dissenting views of a few gain traction, students become teachers, and their students come to feel much less pressure to defend their views against a waning prevailing view. In philosophy there may be renewed interest in a philosopher or some aspect of his work seen from a new perspective, cross disciplinary work such as neurophilosophy, philosophical biology, and philosophical problems in physics are currently strong.
Is Philosophy really in trouble ?
In some sense I think it is. Narrow specialization, jargon, and an emphasis on unassailable arguments runs counter to the tradition of philosophy seeing the big picture. I don’t think things are dire. There is still interesting work being done. For some idea take a click on “interviews” here: http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/. I think it fair to say that philosophy today is pluralistic. Whether there will be any truly revolutionary philosophers in our lifetime remains to be seen. Such philosophers are, after all, exceedingly rare. It may be that revolutionary thinking is more likely to come from the sciences. And this is perhaps part of the problem - the success of science led philosophers and psychologists in the 20th century to embrace the trappings of science. An interesting case is political philosophy. Important work by political philosophers often does not fit well in the academic culture of either philosophy or political science. At the same time theoretical physics has become more philosophical. It may be that old divisions will come to loose their clear distinctions. Multidisciplinary work is in one sense a narrowing of fields but in another an enlargement.
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