Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta »

Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:31 amGreta, there is study of a sort of religious unity. It's the theory of the Axial age by Karl Jaspers. The study is historically not theologically based.
I'd like to see a structured study that also included nonreligious philosophies, including Taosism, Communism, materialism and so forth. What do all of the systems have in common, if anything? Which are most alike?
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Belinda wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:26 am Nick_A quoted and commented:

Of course it had been stupid of me to express it in quite that way, but nevertheless the point was
worth pondering: does there exist in man a natural attraction to truth and to the struggle for truth that is stronger than the natural attraction to pleasure? The history of religion in the west seems by and large to rest on the assumption that the answer is no. Therefore, externally induced emotions of egoistic fear (hellfire), anticipation of pleasure (heaven), vengeance, etc., have been marshaled to keep people in the faith.
Simone Weil
Since there is no objective truth for the secular progressive the only goal can be pleasure. Yet for the young who have survived efforts at spirit killing and are not addicted to materialism, they now know there is a minority both past and present who have shared their need for truth transcending opinions. Their task is to find them and share rather than create and blame scapegoats for their lack of happiness the secular progressives believe they are entitled to.
Apart from those people whose main motive is towards gratifying physical and affectionate needs often for reasons of necessity, one important motive is towards the search for truth, beauty, or goodness.Simone Weil was obviously one of the latter, and it's unusual for her sort of motivation to completely overshadow physical needs.

Faith in transcendent good may be justified at least for pragmatic reasons, and even by sceptics. Nick, you seem to have misunderstood Weil as quoted. She is contrasting innate attraction to transcendent good on the one hand, and religious coercion on the other hand.

You, however mistakenly take her to be contrasting secular institutions with religious institutions. This is wrong as a matter of fact; all institutions religious and secular are perennially in danger of smothering whatever there be of the instinct towards truth,goodness, and beauty. You as usual tilt at your windmill.

That quote is from Jacob Needleman but Simone would have agreed. Simone Weil couldn’t become a part of the Catholic Church within society because she was aware of its corruption. She appreciated the great truths at its source but because of corruption became the “patron saint of outsiders” The initial Christian church was an esoteric school. It had to go underground and the result was various expressions of Christendom in society or man made Christianity producing mixed results.

You are only aware of secular institutions called religious. That is all that matters to you. That is OK but why support the attack on the young who are open to more?
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Greta
Actually Nicholas, I'm talking about the applicability of different methodologies for personal growth aka transcendence. If there is another level of existence, another dimension where the lucky ones go to after death, then all of the religions seem to agree that doing good works brings people closer to what is seemingly required of them - and without the need for metaphysical leverage. Maybe the old masters worked out various "life hacks" to bring one to another level, as if reality has distinct levels like a computer game.
Again, you are caught up with what we do which is the domain of the exoteric level of reality. The transcendent leval is the domain of conscious man. You are concerned with creatures of reaction produced by societal conditioning and I am referring to the potential for conscious humanity capable of conscious action,
It ultimately depends on what happens after we die, which is probably the core of many heated debates on philosophy forums.
Quite true
‘Science says: “We must live,” and seeks the means of prolonging, increasing, facilitating and amplifying life, of making it tolerable and acceptable. Wisdom says: “We must die,” and seeks how to make us die well.’
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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:01 am Greta
Actually Nicholas, I'm talking about the applicability of different methodologies for personal growth aka transcendence. If there is another level of existence, another dimension where the lucky ones go to after death, then all of the religions seem to agree that doing good works brings people closer to what is seemingly required of them - and without the need for metaphysical leverage. Maybe the old masters worked out various "life hacks" to bring one to another level, as if reality has distinct levels like a computer game.
Again, you are caught up with what we do which is the domain of the exoteric level of reality. The transcendent leval is the domain of conscious man. You are concerned with creatures of reaction produced by societal conditioning and I am referring to the potential for conscious humanity capable of conscious action,
You seem to have another definition of "conscious" that means something other than aware and deliberate. Seemingly it refers to being conscious of a particular belief or way of looking at things. I think there are many ways of looking at and experiencing reality, not just "conscious", "unconscious" and "superconscious" (which appears to be what you are talking about).
It ultimately depends on what happens after we die, which is probably the core of many heated debates on philosophy forums.
Nick_A wrote:Quite true
You agreed with something I said ... I feel strange, disoriented, lost. The world will never be the same!

‘Science says: “We must live,” and seeks the means of prolonging, increasing, facilitating and amplifying life, of making it tolerable and acceptable. Wisdom says: “We must die,” and seeks how to make us die well.’
It's actually religion that says we must live - to the point where theists lobby against assisted suicide for suffering terminally ill people.

In truth, science just says things like, "temperature: 36.7C; blood pressure: 120/80 ..." etc. That's what I love about statistics and science - they couldn't give a damn. All they do is lay out the info and one can do with it as they will. If you approach the data with as objectively as possible then it can provide helpful information in understanding this reality in which we live.

I suspect that people were better at dying in the past, in dangerous times when death was more of an everyday occurrence. Today, death - that most commonplace, basic and familiar of things - has become like a frightening, exotic alien that suddenly rudely breaks into our lives. That is how it feels to me, despite what I may know intellectually. So yes, I agree that moderns do have some work to do when it comes to death.

Do you believe in any kind of afterlife?
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Greta
Do you believe in any kind of afterlife?
Yes, but it would be hard to explain in a post. However if you are open to what Meister Eckhart writes it will provide a foundation.
The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God. Meister Eckhart
The seed of the human soul will either perish, be saved, or be nourished to grow so as to become the soul of Man. Sometimes a partially developed seed reincarnates as part of its growing process. This happens far more often in the east since they put more emphasis on nourishing the seed.
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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:11 amGreta
Do you believe in any kind of afterlife?
Yes, but it would be hard to explain in a post. However if you are open to what Meister Eckhart writes it will provide a foundation.
The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God. Meister Eckhart
The seed of the human soul will either perish, be saved, or be nourished to grow so as to become the soul of Man. Sometimes a partially developed seed reincarnates as part of its growing process. This happens far more often in the east since they put more emphasis on nourishing the seed.
I haven't seen an Eckhart Tolle video for years and just revisited: "Eckhart Tolle talks about What Happens When We Die". OMG, the questioner talking about his dead dog ... dammit, I was a blubbering mess :lol:, but when it comes to dogs I give kudos to Tolle - he truly gets it. Not a lot of people do. I didn't for a long time.

I like Tolle's perspectives generally. He is speculative at times but I'm fine with that. If I want more orthodox material, there's plenty of physicists, biologists and astronomers available.
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Nick_A wrote:
You are only aware of secular institutions called religious. That is all that matters to you. That is OK but why support the attack on the young who are open to more?
Are you addressing me?
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Arising_uk
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Nick_A wrote:...
That is OK but why support the attack on the young who are open to more?
What do you mean by 'open to more'?

What is it you are actually proposing to teach them?
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Greta wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:20 am
Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:11 amGreta
Do you believe in any kind of afterlife?
Yes, but it would be hard to explain in a post. However if you are open to what Meister Eckhart writes it will provide a foundation.
The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God. Meister Eckhart
The seed of the human soul will either perish, be saved, or be nourished to grow so as to become the soul of Man. Sometimes a partially developed seed reincarnates as part of its growing process. This happens far more often in the east since they put more emphasis on nourishing the seed.
I haven't seen an Eckhart Tolle video for years and just revisited: "Eckhart Tolle talks about What Happens When We Die". OMG, the questioner talking about his dead dog ... dammit, I was a blubbering mess :lol:, but when it comes to dogs I give kudos to Tolle - he truly gets it. Not a lot of people do. I didn't for a long time.

I like Tolle's perspectives generally. He is speculative at times but I'm fine with that. If I want more orthodox material, there's plenty of physicists, biologists and astronomers available.

Meister Eckhart is not Eckhart Tolle. Meister Eckhart was a truly extraordinary Christian mystic.

https://www.eckhartsociety.org/eckhart/his-teachings
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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:49 pm
Greta wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:20 am
Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:11 amGreta



Yes, but it would be hard to explain in a post. However if you are open to what Meister Eckhart writes it will provide a foundation.



The seed of the human soul will either perish, be saved, or be nourished to grow so as to become the soul of Man. Sometimes a partially developed seed reincarnates as part of its growing process. This happens far more often in the east since they put more emphasis on nourishing the seed.
I haven't seen an Eckhart Tolle video for years and just revisited: "Eckhart Tolle talks about What Happens When We Die". OMG, the questioner talking about his dead dog ... dammit, I was a blubbering mess :lol:, but when it comes to dogs I give kudos to Tolle - he truly gets it. Not a lot of people do. I didn't for a long time.

I like Tolle's perspectives generally. He is speculative at times but I'm fine with that. If I want more orthodox material, there's plenty of physicists, biologists and astronomers available.

Meister Eckhart is not Eckhart Tolle. Meister Eckhart was a truly extraordinary Christian mystic.

https://www.eckhartsociety.org/eckhart/his-teachings
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I still think ET has a good attitude towards dogs :)

Will be busy for a couple of days, will check out Meister when I can.
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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I just posted a new thread: :The Struggle for the American Soul" It may inspire some appreciation for my political ideas you' haven't understood.
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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http://pix11.com/2018/01/18/third-new-r ... ys-police/

NEW ROCHELLE, N.Y. — A student was stabbed at New Rochelle High School Thursday, marking the third time a teen from the campus was attacked in eight days.
New Rochelle High School issued a "hold in place" order after a student was stabbed on Jan. 18, 2018. (Henry Rosoff/ PIX11)
A 16-year-old sustained two puncture wounds during the stabbing on campus Thursday, according to police, who say they were called by campus security around 8:50 a.m.
The teen was hospitalized, and is expected to survive, police said.
A 15-year-old suspected of attacking the victim was seen on video leaving the building after the stabbing, police said.
When I read these accounts I wonder who the secular progressives will blame next. Will they attack Christians, cnservatives, or even anyone questioning the secular progressive agenda as the cause of three teens being stabbed and the death of one. They must have a scapegoat to blame. How can they possibly blame the ignorance they share which causes teens to lose any sense of human worth and become crazed attacking things lacking any sense of human meaning? I remember reading once that Man is the only higher mammal which eats its young. Yes we consume their souls for profit leaving them dead inside. The best we can do is to create scapegoats and cast blame. And they call Man an intelligent animal. What’s wrong with this picture?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:38 pm When I read these accounts I wonder who the secular progressives will blame next...
... They must have a scapegoat to blame....
... the ignorance they share which causes teens to lose any sense of human worth and become crazed attacking things ...
... The best we can do is to create scapegoats and cast blame....
Do you have any sense of the hypocrisy involved in accusing others of the evil of scapegoating ... and then scapegoating them for everything ... and then complaining again about scapegoating?

I have low expectations of you. I think you are severely incompetent in all things. But still you find ways to be more stupid than I expect of you.
Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:54 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:38 pm When I read these accounts I wonder who the secular progressives will blame next...
... They must have a scapegoat to blame....
... the ignorance they share which causes teens to lose any sense of human worth and become crazed attacking things ...
... The best we can do is to create scapegoats and cast blame....
Do you have any sense of the hypocrisy involved in accusing others of the evil of scapegoating ... and then scapegoating them for everything ... and then complaining again about scapegoating?

I have low expectations of you. I think you are severely incompetent in all things. But still you find ways to be more stupid than I expect of you.

That is because you re so intent on scapegoating you don't understand what i wrote.
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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:49 pmMeister Eckhart is not Eckhart Tolle. Meister Eckhart was a truly extraordinary Christian mystic.

https://www.eckhartsociety.org/eckhart/his-teachings
A blend of some things I have thought myself for some time and other things I would dispute.

I am not keen on the kind of stitch-up involved with 'Don’t try to understand him. Just go on reading him’. That is called brainwashing. If one reads the work and is unimpressed then they are shallow failures failed and only those who are inspired by him 'understand'. Whether true or not, it's simply wrong IMO to manipulate in that way.

It's odd reading Christian material, like stepping into an alternate reality. This was especially interesting as the author establishes Echhart's credentials:
Eckhart was certainly not a muddled thinker. He was an outstanding theologian at the period when scholasticism was at the peak of its prestige – in fact, when it was the dominant influence in Western European thought. And, whatever reservations many of us may have today about scholasticism, there is no doubt about the importance scholasticism gave to logical soundness in argument, to scrupulous analysis of theses, and to systematising. Eckhart knew how to organise his thoughts.
He needed to dispel his audience's belief that "scholasticism" and muddled thinking are not synonymous. If he gave the same talk to a non-religious audience he would need to dispel the audience's belief that religious belief and muddled thinking are synonymous.
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