Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:44 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm
-1-


Yes, I am an individual, the one true representative of the Nick_
What a strange 'coincidence' then that as Greta has pointed out, your views 'just happen' to coincide with right-wing religious Republicans. Have you ever voted Democrat?

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:01 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:44 am
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm
-1-


Yes, I am an individual, the one true representative of the Nick_
What a strange 'coincidence' then that as Greta has pointed out, your views 'just happen' to coincide with right-wing religious Republicans. Have you ever voted Democrat?
No. Those like greta believe in women's rights and the rights of other select collectives secular progressives support. . I believe in human rights and what is necessary to sustain them

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Greta
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:12 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:01 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:44 am
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm
-1-


Yes, I am an individual, the one true representative of the Nick_
What a strange 'coincidence' then that as Greta has pointed out, your views 'just happen' to coincide with right-wing religious Republicans. Have you ever voted Democrat?
No. Those like greta believe in women's rights and the rights of other select collectives secular progressives support. . I believe in human rights and what is necessary to sustain them
The Republicans, with whom you invariably agree on touchstone issues, are sustaining human rights? Quite the contrary.

It's true that I like the idea of having roughly the same rights as other people. You might not like women having rights, but what makes you think you are correct when all of the functional nations in the world enjoy relative equality while the worst basket cases are almost all patriarchies? The evidence is not with you.

uwot
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by uwot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:23 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:52 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:58 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:46 am
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/is ... lectivism/

The fundamental political conflict in America today is, as it has been for a century, individualism vs. collectivism. Does the individual’s life belong to him—or does it belong to the group, the community, society, or the state?
Actually, that has been the fundamental political conflict in the rest of the world forever. The church, the military, the judiciary and economic cabals are all collectives marshalled by aristocratic/oligarchic collectives to conserve their position. It is only by weight of numbers that people who do not directly benefit from membership of one of the above, can limit the power of such collectives. It's called democracy. Or "The Great Beast", according to Nick_A.
It is the nature of the Beast. All life on earth including animal man reacts in accordance with natural laws, One such law is explains the pendulum effect where everything moves back and forth. the Great Beast or society itself is the same. At one point one part is dominant and after a while another becomes dominant. These are natural life cycles. The point is that people believe the pendulum effect is the result of conscious choice when it is just animal reaction in accordance with universal laws.
I see. So the church, the military, the judiciary, economic cabals, the aristocracy/oligarchry are all components of "The Great Beast"; products of the "animal man", which swing back and forwards, forming different associations of interest called 'collectives'. Well yeah; anyone with a grasp of history beyond last Tuesday and a knowledge of geography that extends beyond spitting range, will recognise some version of that. As far as I can gather, the solution you propose and attribute to Weil and Needleman, is to 'transcend' reality, by sticking your head in the sand and pretend you are not being shafted.

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:08 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:23 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:52 pm
uwot wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:58 pm


Actually, that has been the fundamental political conflict in the rest of the world forever. The church, the military, the judiciary and economic cabals are all collectives marshalled by aristocratic/oligarchic collectives to conserve their position. It is only by weight of numbers that people who do not directly benefit from membership of one of the above, can limit the power of such collectives. It's called democracy. Or "The Great Beast", according to Nick_A.
It is the nature of the Beast. All life on earth including animal man reacts in accordance with natural laws, One such law is explains the pendulum effect where everything moves back and forth. the Great Beast or society itself is the same. At one point one part is dominant and after a while another becomes dominant. These are natural life cycles. The point is that people believe the pendulum effect is the result of conscious choice when it is just animal reaction in accordance with universal laws.
I see. So the church, the military, the judiciary, economic cabals, the aristocracy/oligarchry are all components of "The Great Beast"; products of the "animal man", which swing back and forwards, forming different associations of interest called 'collectives'. Well yeah; anyone with a grasp of history beyond last Tuesday and a knowledge of geography that extends beyond spitting range, will recognise some version of that. As far as I can gather, the solution you propose and attribute to Weil and Needleman, is to 'transcend' reality, by sticking your head in the sand and pretend you are not being shafted.
It is exactly the opposite. Your beliefs demand creating scapegoats you've described including others not described. That is your reality. In contrast what you call reality is only the results of the human condition maintained through imagination. I am referring to transcending slavery to imagination while those here are defending slavery to imagination by casting blame and creating scapegoats

uwot
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by uwot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:56 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:08 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:23 pm
So the church, the military, the judiciary, economic cabals, the aristocracy/oligarchry are all components of "The Great Beast"; products of the "animal man", which swing back and forwards, forming different associations of interest called 'collectives'. Well yeah; anyone with a grasp of history beyond last Tuesday and a knowledge of geography that extends beyond spitting range, will recognise some version of that. As far as I can gather, the solution you propose and attribute to Weil and Needleman, is to 'transcend' reality, by sticking your head in the sand and pretend you are not being shafted.
It is exactly the opposite. Your beliefs demand creating scapegoats you've described including others not described. That is your reality.
Ah. So elites maintained by religious, military, judicial and economic policies are a figment of my imagination.
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:08 pm
In contrast what you call reality is only the results of the human condition maintained through imagination.
Whereas, in your world, people who have power are happy to share it, and do nothing to hang on to it.
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:08 pm
I am referring to transcending slavery to imagination while those here are defending slavery to imagination by casting blame and creating scapegoats
What a pity we can't all just forget these silly ideas that there are some people who take advantage of us, by exploiting our superstitions, good will and resources; by force, if necessary.

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am

uwot
What a pity we can't all just forget these silly ideas that there are some people who take advantage of us, by exploiting our superstitions, good will and resources; by force, if necessary.
You have described what happens and I agree. The point I am making is that there is no choice in it. The Great Beast is a creature of reaction. It is capable of both the greatest compassion and the most horrible atrocities. It is easy to see all these reactions taking place in the world and create scapegoats but a certain minority begin to experience that they are a slave to exactly the same hypocrisy they accuse scapegoats of
" Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy
Secular progressives are notorious for this. They are so busy transforming the world that they cannot admit how corrupt their own inner lives are so are content to blame scapegoats. They never question how they can change from a creature of reaction into a conscious being capable of conscious action reflecting a human perspective. So even their fine words are destined to have the opposite effect since neither words nor creating scapegoats can replace consciousness and the results of impartial self knowledge.

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:45 am

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
Secular progressives are notorious for this. They are so busy transforming the world that they cannot admit how corrupt their own inner lives are so are content to blame scapegoats.
When you are done, there is an unfinished conversation ...

uwot
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by uwot » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:32 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
uwot
What a pity we can't all just forget these silly ideas that there are some people who take advantage of us, by exploiting our superstitions, good will and resources; by force, if necessary.
You have described what happens and I agree. The point I am making is that there is no choice in it.
I disagree. It is a lazy and cowardly surrender, to retreat to some supine metaphysical fantasy.
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
The Great Beast is a creature of reaction. It is capable of both the greatest compassion and the most horrible atrocities. It is easy to see all these reactions taking place in the world and create scapegoats but a certain minority begin to experience that they are a slave to exactly the same hypocrisy they accuse scapegoats of
By making scapegoats of The Great Beast and secular progressives, for example. Presumably your "certain minority" is comfortable with its hypocritical slavery.
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
" Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy
Secular progressives are notorious for this.
Among whom? Your certain minority? The Great Beast?
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
They are so busy transforming the world that they cannot admit how corrupt their own inner lives are so are content to blame scapegoats.
Well, as you see fit to quote Tolstoy, perhaps you have read this by him: "The truth is that the State is a conspiracy designed not only to exploit, but above all to corrupt its citizens."
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
They never question how they can change from a creature of reaction into a conscious being capable of conscious action reflecting a human perspective. So even their fine words are destined to have the opposite effect since neither words nor creating scapegoats can replace consciousness and the results of impartial self knowledge.
By all means change yourself into a "conscious being", that thinks there is no choice but to bend over for The Great Beast. Thanks to people who are prepared to challenge power, it is still, in places, a free world.

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by uwot » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:33 pm

Greta wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:45 am
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
Secular progressives are notorious for this. They are so busy transforming the world that they cannot admit how corrupt their own inner lives are so are content to blame scapegoats.
When you are done, there is an unfinished conversation ...
Sorry Greta, am I interrupting something?

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:26 pm

Uwot
By all means change yourself into a "conscious being", that thinks there is no choice but to bend over for The Great Beast. Thanks to people who are prepared to challenge power, it is still, in places, a free world.
Transcending the nature of the beast is not bending over for it. Rather it is knowledge of the forces which keep us a slave to it through the power of imagination. Where nature uses force for her purposes, Man has the potential to consciously use force for a greater good than blindly participating in nature's cycles. Simone Weil wrote of force in her celebrated essay: "The Iliad or the Poem of Force." From Wikipedia:
Weil introduces the central theme of her essay in the first three sentences:

"The true hero, the true subject, the centre of the Iliad, is force. Force employed by man, force that enslaves man, force before which man's flesh shrinks away. In this work at all times, the human spirit is shown as modified by its relation to force, as swept away, blinded, by the very force it imagined it could handle, as deformed by the weight of the force it submits to." She proceeds to define force as that which turns anyone subjected to it into a thing – at worst, into a corpse. Weil discusses the emotional and psychological violence one suffers if forced to submit to force even when not physically hurt, holding up the slave and the supplicant as examples. She goes on to say force is dangerous not just to the victim, but to whoever controls it, as it intoxicates, partly by numbing the senses of reason and pity. Force thus can turn even its possessor into a thing – an unthinking automaton driven by rage or lust. The essay relates how the Iliad suggests that no one truly controls force; as everyone in the poem, even the mighty Achilles and Agamemnon, suffer at least briefly when the force of events turns against them. Weil says only by using force in moderation can one escape its ill effects, but that the restraint to do this is very rarely found, and is only a means of temporary escape from force's inevitable heft...........................................
You seem content to be a slave to force. Simone describes conscious freedom from emotional slavery to force

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:35 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:26 pm
Uwot
By all means change yourself into a "conscious being", that thinks there is no choice but to bend over for The Great Beast. Thanks to people who are prepared to challenge power, it is still, in places, a free world.
Transcending the nature of the beast is not bending over for it. Rather it is knowledge of the forces which keep us a slave to it through the power of imagination. Where nature uses force for her purposes, Man has the potential to consciously use force for a greater good than blindly participating in nature's cycles. Simone Weil wrote of force in her celebrated essay: "The Iliad or the Poem of Force." From Wikipedia:
Weil introduces the central theme of her essay in the first three sentences:

"The true hero, the true subject, the centre of the Iliad, is force. Force employed by man, force that enslaves man, force before which man's flesh shrinks away. In this work at all times, the human spirit is shown as modified by its relation to force, as swept away, blinded, by the very force it imagined it could handle, as deformed by the weight of the force it submits to." She proceeds to define force as that which turns anyone subjected to it into a thing – at worst, into a corpse. Weil discusses the emotional and psychological violence one suffers if forced to submit to force even when not physically hurt, holding up the slave and the supplicant as examples. She goes on to say force is dangerous not just to the victim, but to whoever controls it, as it intoxicates, partly by numbing the senses of reason and pity. Force thus can turn even its possessor into a thing – an unthinking automaton driven by rage or lust. The essay relates how the Iliad suggests that no one truly controls force; as everyone in the poem, even the mighty Achilles and Agamemnon, suffer at least briefly when the force of events turns against them. Weil says only by using force in moderation can one escape its ill effects, but that the restraint to do this is very rarely found, and is only a means of temporary escape from force's inevitable heft...........................................
You seem content to be a slave to force. Simone describes conscious freedom from emotional slavery to force
You really aren't bright enough to be arguing this topic. You don't have the insight to understand the particular group you are trying (unsuccessfully) to describe. It just comes across as another one of your pointless rants against what you refer to in other threads as ''atheists''.
You should try pulling your head out of your arse--there really isn't much to see up there.

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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:46 am

uwot wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:33 pm
Greta wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:45 am
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:25 am
Secular progressives are notorious for this. They are so busy transforming the world that they cannot admit how corrupt their own inner lives are so are content to blame scapegoats.
When you are done, there is an unfinished conversation ...
Sorry Greta, am I interrupting something?
Not a problem, uwot, and thanks for being considerate, but I was mixed up. It's another thread where there was the possibility of dialogue between him and me. After a while the Nick discussions tend to meld together ...

Nick_A
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:39 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:35 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:26 pm
Uwot
By all means change yourself into a "conscious being", that thinks there is no choice but to bend over for The Great Beast. Thanks to people who are prepared to challenge power, it is still, in places, a free world.
Transcending the nature of the beast is not bending over for it. Rather it is knowledge of the forces which keep us a slave to it through the power of imagination. Where nature uses force for her purposes, Man has the potential to consciously use force for a greater good than blindly participating in nature's cycles. Simone Weil wrote of force in her celebrated essay: "The Iliad or the Poem of Force." From Wikipedia:
Weil introduces the central theme of her essay in the first three sentences:

"The true hero, the true subject, the centre of the Iliad, is force. Force employed by man, force that enslaves man, force before which man's flesh shrinks away. In this work at all times, the human spirit is shown as modified by its relation to force, as swept away, blinded, by the very force it imagined it could handle, as deformed by the weight of the force it submits to." She proceeds to define force as that which turns anyone subjected to it into a thing – at worst, into a corpse. Weil discusses the emotional and psychological violence one suffers if forced to submit to force even when not physically hurt, holding up the slave and the supplicant as examples. She goes on to say force is dangerous not just to the victim, but to whoever controls it, as it intoxicates, partly by numbing the senses of reason and pity. Force thus can turn even its possessor into a thing – an unthinking automaton driven by rage or lust. The essay relates how the Iliad suggests that no one truly controls force; as everyone in the poem, even the mighty Achilles and Agamemnon, suffer at least briefly when the force of events turns against them. Weil says only by using force in moderation can one escape its ill effects, but that the restraint to do this is very rarely found, and is only a means of temporary escape from force's inevitable heft...........................................
You seem content to be a slave to force. Simone describes conscious freedom from emotional slavery to force
You really aren't bright enough to be arguing this topic. You don't have the insight to understand the particular group you are trying (unsuccessfully) to describe. It just comes across as another one of your pointless rants against what you refer to in other threads as ''atheists''.
You should try pulling your head out of your arse--there really isn't much to see up there.
As a dedicated secular progressive you are unable to discuss individulity and only recognize groups. The individual doesn't exist for you. Yet Simone is not referring to just society as a whole or the Great Beast. She is speaking of an individual's psychological slavery to force and why we remain not human. Most defend psychological slavery and are content with meaningless arguments in the struggle for prestige to justify this slavery. But there is a minority who oppose psychological slavery and are willing to make the necessary conscious efforts to acquire inner freedom.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Scapegoats for Secular Progressives

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:29 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:39 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:35 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:26 pm
Uwot



Transcending the nature of the beast is not bending over for it. Rather it is knowledge of the forces which keep us a slave to it through the power of imagination. Where nature uses force for her purposes, Man has the potential to consciously use force for a greater good than blindly participating in nature's cycles. Simone Weil wrote of force in her celebrated essay: "The Iliad or the Poem of Force." From Wikipedia:



You seem content to be a slave to force. Simone describes conscious freedom from emotional slavery to force
You really aren't bright enough to be arguing this topic. You don't have the insight to understand the particular group you are trying (unsuccessfully) to describe. It just comes across as another one of your pointless rants against what you refer to in other threads as ''atheists''.
You should try pulling your head out of your arse--there really isn't much to see up there.
As a dedicated secular progressive you are unable to discuss individulity and only recognize groups. The individual doesn't exist for you. Yet Simone is not referring to just society as a whole or the Great Beast. She is speaking of an individual's psychological slavery to force and why we remain not human. Most defend psychological slavery and are content with meaningless arguments in the struggle for prestige to justify this slavery. But there is a minority who oppose psychological slavery and are willing to make the necessary conscious efforts to acquire inner freedom.
Are you a bot? You don't seem to 'hear' anything anyone else says. How exactly am I a 'secular progressive'? Do you also believe there are only two 'colours', black and white?

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