Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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thedoc wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:42 pm
Free will and determinism are both opinions, the evidence depends on how it is interpreted to apply, and the interpretation is an opinion.
I think free will and determinism are only rendered to be opinions (whereas they are not, in reality) because a bunch of people with religious and religious/Christian backgrounds can't divorce themselves from their caused thinking patterns and opinions.

If there were no opposing opinions to accepting no free will and determinism, then these two opinions would cease to be mere opinions.

A classic case of "observation alters the nature of the observed". It doesn't happen only in the sub-atomic quantum world, you know.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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thata23 wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:35 am Even if free will does not exist, the fact that we can come up with thoughts in our head and put them on paper and make them into "reality" (...) must mean there is some sort of higher force at work. The truth will always come out.
I don't see a connection there. Yes, we come up with thoughts, yes, free will does not exist, no, the two do not together mean that a higher force must exist. There is nothing to indicate that.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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Dubious wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:34 pm In itself it's got nothing to do with evolution. It's simply an intelligence ploy. You might as well ask...

why do we feel we have a soul

why do we believe in god

why do we believe in resurrection or reincarnation

why do we believe in anything regarding life after death

why do we believe that consciousness has a special mandate

why do we believe in anything that's not proven.
-1- wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:04 am To sustain a parallel to the original post, we would require not asking "Why do we feel we have a soul?" etc, but "why has evolution helped us feel that we have a soul?"
What you say is true but the implication was that evolution created that degree of consciousness which resulted in the kind of intelligence humans normally possess making the idea of soul and all such speculations to be its direct consequence. I can't see anything in the processes of evolution that would cause us to feel that way, allow or disallow it, not for any explicit purpose anyways.
So... if I show you that such notions as soul, reincarnation, realizing our conscious, reflecting on the afterlife, etc., and such speculations are a direct consequence not only of human intellect, but other aspects that developed due to evolutionary forces... will you see them? I mean, if I take the trouble and come up with scenarios and pervasive enough scenarios that SHOW TO BE SEEN that evolutionary process helped man create and sustain these impressions, then will you see the point?

This is actually asking, "are you emotionally so committed to your opinion in this matter, that if you see counter-examples of your theory, then you still won't abandon your theory? or are you not so strongly committed to your opinion."

Depending on your answer I will show you how these notions actually helped survival of the individuals who possessed them better over the chances for survival of individuals who did not have them. I don't promise to show for them all, but only because that would become tedious work; I'll show you a few, and you can work out the rest yourself, if you so desire.

But I am not willing to fight another pointless convincing battle. Therefore I ask you to please agree first to the terms: logic rules, and if it means to change your convictions or even your values, you capitulate to logic nevertheless.

I have had enough trouble on this site due to not enforcing this last rule before engaging in a debate.
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Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:30 pm The World is deterministic, not determined; I'm a free will and so are you.

Buck up, friend, it ain't so bad bein' a self-directed, self-responsible agent.

Pretty cool, actually.
So you have free will in a deterministic world?
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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A_Seagull wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:50 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:06 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:05 pm

Not really. There is no empirical evidence from which it can be concluded that the world is determined.

And without that empirical evidence any conclusions regarding determinism are nothing more than unjustified presumptions.
Are you aware of standard model?
The standard model of fundamental particles? Yes of course. But I don't see what that has got to do with it.

And in any case, it is just a model.
You have a set of equations which describe how a system of particles evolve.
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Post by henry quirk »

"So you have free will in a deterministic world?"

I am a free will, yes, and so are you.
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Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:09 pm "So you have free will in a deterministic world?"

I am a free will, yes, and so are you.
Aren't you a part of deterministic world?
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by dorothea »

Our belief in free will has survived to it cannot be inimical to survival, and must be neutral or advantageous, as many posts on here have specified. (We could of course adopt George Moore's common sense defence and say, a plague on your philosophising.) Here's a related question I'd like help with. Supposing that at the start of a 100m race you knew everything about each of the runners - physiology, psychology, energy, present state of health and mind, and even the way their shoes and the surface interact, the effect of wind, crowd distraction et cetera. Could you forecast the result of the race? If so, would that mean the race was determined, and the runners were in some way not exercising free will?
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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Dorothea, only an impossibly intelligent mind can know everything, and only an impossibly intelligent mind can predict the future with precise accuracy.

Humans are incapable of knowing everything. And the capacity of human thought and reasoning is not quite keen enough to factore everything properly inte predicting the outcome of the race.

But a sufficiently intelligent being who knows everything and knows the results of dynamic interacions, can predict the result.

The beauty of determinism is that reality is too complex for humans to come up with a deterministic convergence about the future on everything. But we must not make the mistake of man's inability to predict the future that the future is not predictable. It's predictable, all right; only human's minds are too small to do it.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by A_Seagull »

bahman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:18 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:50 pm
bahman wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:06 pm

Are you aware of standard model?
The standard model of fundamental particles? Yes of course. But I don't see what that has got to do with it.

And in any case, it is just a model.
You have a set of equations which describe how a system of particles evolve.
I sorry but you have not come up with any viable arguments to support your case. I doubt that you have any idea what you are talking about.

I have grown bored with this conversation. Farewell.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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A_Seagull wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:46 am I have grown bored with this conversation. Farewell.
That didn't take long, as expected, bahman's conversations are quite boring,
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thata23 »

-1- wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:31 pm The beauty of determinism is that reality is too complex for humans to come up with a deterministic convergence about the future on everything. But we must not make the mistake of man's inability to predict the future that the future is not predictable. It's predictable, all right; only human's minds are too small to do it.
So are you saying that all the thoughts that appear in our mind are predictable since the beginning of time, which would indicate that everything just builds on things before it and nothing is actually a new idea?
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thedoc »

thata23 wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:22 am
-1- wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:31 pm The beauty of determinism is that reality is too complex for humans to come up with a deterministic convergence about the future on everything. But we must not make the mistake of man's inability to predict the future that the future is not predictable. It's predictable, all right; only human's minds are too small to do it.
So are you saying that all the thoughts that appear in our mind are predictable since the beginning of time, which would indicate that everything just builds on things before it and nothing is actually a new idea?
It has been said that all the plots for stories were invented for the ancient Greek plays that were done over 2,000 years ago, and all the modern guitar licks are just classical music at a different tempo. If all the modern things are just ancient plots re-written, it is mans intellect recreating everything new. Are you trying to say that everything has been determined before. How can the human mind come up with anything new if that is the case.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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A_Seagull wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:46 am
bahman wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:18 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:50 pm

The standard model of fundamental particles? Yes of course. But I don't see what that has got to do with it.

And in any case, it is just a model.
You have a set of equations which describe how a system of particles evolve.
I sorry but you have not come up with any viable arguments to support your case. I doubt that you have any idea what you are talking about.

I have grown bored with this conversation. Farewell.
Argument? I am talking about standard model which explain the behavior of particles in a deterministic way. Farewell.
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Post by henry quirk »

"Aren't you a part of deterministic world?"

Yes, a deterministic workd, not a determined world.

You do see the difference, yeah?
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