Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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bahman
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Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

What is the use of feeling that we have free will if the reality is based on determinism?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

You seem to be implying that evolution excercises some sort of will, which is not the theory at all. In a deterministic universe vestigial and accidental traits such as male nipples and the occasional tail are not removed from the gene pool unless they result in reduced offspring.

You've failed to cover why not having that trait would be evolutionarily advantageous to the point of removing it.
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:20 pm You seem to be implying that evolution excercises some sort of will, which is not the theory at all.
I didn't say so.
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:20 pm In a deterministic universe vestigial and accidental traits such as male nipples and the occasional tail are not removed from the gene pool unless they result in reduced offspring.
I agree.
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:20 pm You've failed to cover why not having that trait would be evolutionarily advantageous to the point of removing it.
I failed on what? I am just opening a discussion by asking a question.
Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am What is the use of feeling that we have free will if the reality is based on determinism?

Purpose, because we would n`t function positively alongside the sense of being out of control, and all of our actions being decided for us. This is the alternative place, experiencing ourselves as no more than robots, there is no middle ground. Without this sense of free will I doubt we`d even exist as a species.
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:14 pm Purpose, because we would n`t function positively alongside the sense of being out of control, and all of our actions being decided for us.
Well, you know that free will is an illusion. What is the feeling positive about?
Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:14 pm This is the alternative place, experiencing ourselves as no more than robots, there is no middle ground.
The reality is that we are robot.
Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:14 pm Without this sense of free will I doubt we`d even exist as a species.
Animal do not have this feeling and survive well.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm
Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:14 pm Purpose, because we would n`t function positively alongside the sense of being out of control, and all of our actions being decided for us.
Well, you know that free will is an illusion. What is the feeling positive about?
That's a big assumption.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism
bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm
Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:14 pm Without this sense of free will I doubt we`d even exist as a species.
Animal do not have this feeling and survive well.
Assuming only for sake of argument that is true, which is something you cannot possibly know, we also have lots of other capabilities which evolution has withheld from the rest of the animal kingdom. We obviously make more complicated choices than other animals, otherwise we wouldn't have invented churches or trousers. Perhaps the illusion of free will permits such things and lack of it serves to deny other animals these capabilities.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?"

We don't feel like we have free will; we are free wills (agents [as in 'agent causation']) each and every one of us.
Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

What is apparent is that homoerectus only just made it, that numbers were very low for a considerable period, and yes, take something as significant as free will from the equation, it`s motivating presence, and it becomes difficult to imagine that an intelligence as potentially advanced as our own could have successfully out competed for this entire journey here, intelligence being the issue. Other mammals may well all experience this notion for free will. With a brain the size/functionality of an animals it is likely that motivation is not required to be in the conscious mind, and in which case the sense of having free will is not required. Because they lack out intelligence, come likely conscious mind, they can readily afford to forfeit a sense of free will, for their motivation would be replenished from elsewhere. This area of debate is best engaged, in my opinion, with applied logic.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by -1- »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:20 pm You seem to be implying that evolution excercises some sort of will, which is not the theory at all. In a deterministic universe vestigial and accidental traits such as male nipples and the occasional tail are not removed from the gene pool unless they result in reduced offspring.

You've failed to cover why not having that trait would be evolutionarily advantageous to the point of removing it.
I was gonna reply, "Ask evolution."
thedoc
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thedoc »

bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm Well, you know that free will is an illusion.
Prove it.
thata23
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thata23 »

thedoc wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:13 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm Well, you know that free will is an illusion.
Prove it.
Exactly, that is weak saying it's an illusion. We can remove borders and all these divisions if we want to, all it takes is belief that it's possible. Since they were created by humans, they can be removed by humans.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by -1- »

thata23 wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:43 am
thedoc wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:13 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm Well, you know that free will is an illusion.
Prove it.
Exactly, that is weak saying it's an illusion. We can remove borders and all these divisions if we want to, all it takes is belief that it's possible. Since they were created by humans, they can be removed by humans.
Humans are created by humans, that's why humans can remove humans.

But lions did not create humans, and they still can remove humans.

Boundaries can be removed regardless they had been created by humans or not.

Or created by humans by their will and at their option or not.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by -1- »

There are tons of free reasons why the illusion of free will by humans is not filtered out by evolution.

1. It is not necessary to be filtered out for survival.
2. It gives man a feeling of superiority: "This is MY achievement that I accomplished by MY OWN merit." Etc.
3. It gives man a social tool for motivating mass behaviour.
4. It gives man 4.1. an alleged independence from god 4.2. an illusion of independence from causality and 4.3. something to think about in his free time.
Dubious
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by Dubious »

In itself it's got nothing to do with evolution. It's simply an intelligence ploy. You might as well ask...

why do we feel we have a soul

why do we believe in god

why do we believe in resurrection or reincarnation

why do we believe in anything regarding life after death

why do we believe that consciousness has a special mandate

why do we believe in anything that's not proven.

...because of one thing that is proven namely that humans are wishful thinkers believing they're far more important than they are and so create whole philosophies out of that assumption to give it structure free will being the tipping point to the whole mess. Your will however remains free to will whatever you like until sabotaged by reality.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by -1- »

Dubious wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:18 am In itself it's got nothing to do with evolution. It's simply an intelligence ploy. You might as well ask...

why do we feel we have a soul

why do we believe in god

why do we believe in resurrection or reincarnation

why do we believe in anything regarding life after death

why do we believe that consciousness has a special mandate

why do we believe in anything that's not proven.

...because of one thing that is proven namely that humans are wishful thinkers believing they're far more important than they are and so create whole philosophies out of that assumption to give it structure free will being the tipping point to the whole mess. Your will however remains free to will whatever you like until sabotaged by reality.
To sustain a parallel to the original post, we would require not asking "Why do we feel we have a soul?" etc, but "why has evolution helped us feel that we have a soul?" Etc.

Why? the general question, is not easy to answer.

Why we have this or that trait in terms of evolutionary development, is answerable, and is answerable rather profoundly, easily and with no self-contradictions. Once one does take the trouble of figuring these things out, even by speculation.
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