Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

thedoc wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:13 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm Well, you know that free will is an illusion.
Prove it.
I have three reasons for this: (1) We are the result of division of an original cell, embryo. Embryo doesn't have free will. The process of division cannot grant free will bu complexity. (2) The very notion of free will can be show that it is related to a self-cause act. A self-cause act is an act which presumably is started/created by an agent. This is impossible in a causal world because you simply need a cause which does not belong to any chain of causality. (3) The third reason I forgot during typing this reply :mrgreen:.
thedoc
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thedoc »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:05 am
thedoc wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:13 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:12 pm Well, you know that free will is an illusion.
Prove it.
I have three reasons for this: (1) We are the result of division of an original cell, embryo. Embryo doesn't have free will. The process of division cannot grant free will bu complexity. (2) The very notion of free will can be show that it is related to a self-cause act. A self-cause act is an act which presumably is started/created by an agent. This is impossible in a causal world because you simply need a cause which does not belong to any chain of causality. (3) The third reason I forgot during typing this reply :mrgreen:.
(3) proves that you do have free will, if it were determined that you were going to write that response, you wouldn't have forgotten.

Having free will does not require that all actions are not determined, just some. Free will exists along with many determined actions. An action does not need to be un-caused for an individual to have free will, the agent can choose from several options, in determinism there is no choice since the actions are determined.
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

thedoc wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:46 pm (3) proves that you do have free will, if it were determined that you were going to write that response, you wouldn't have forgotten.
I think that is your turn to show that free will exist or argue against my arguments.
thedoc wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:46 pm Having free will does not require that all actions are not determined, just some. Free will exists along with many determined actions. An action does not need to be un-caused for an individual to have free will, the agent can choose from several options, in determinism there is no choice since the actions are determined.
Or some we aware and the rest we are unaware.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by A_Seagull »

bahman wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am What is the use of feeling that we have free will if the reality is based on determinism?
You might just as well ask: Why does evolution allow some people to be deceived into thinking that determinism is the reality?
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am What is the use of feeling that we have free will if the reality is based on determinism?
You might just as well ask: Why does evolution allow some people to be deceived into thinking that determinism is the reality?
Deceived? There are empirical evidences that determinism is true.
thedoc
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thedoc »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:08 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am What is the use of feeling that we have free will if the reality is based on determinism?
You might just as well ask: Why does evolution allow some people to be deceived into thinking that determinism is the reality?
Deceived? There are empirical evidences that determinism is true.
Free will and determinism are both opinions, the evidence depends on how it is interpreted to apply, and the interpretation is an opinion.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thedoc »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:59 pm Or some we aware and the rest we are unaware.
Being aware or not has no relevance to free will or determinism. We can be un-aware of choices that we make via free will just as we can have full knowledge of those choices. Choosing is an act of free will.
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

thedoc wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:42 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:08 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm You might just as well ask: Why does evolution allow some people to be deceived into thinking that determinism is the reality?
Deceived? There are empirical evidences that determinism is true.
Free will and determinism are both opinions, the evidence depends on how it is interpreted to apply, and the interpretation is an opinion.
We just have a feeling for free will. Determinism however based on last theoretical finding where theoretical finding, so called standard model, is also confirmed by experiment.
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

thedoc wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:50 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:59 pm Or some we aware and the rest we are unaware.
Being aware or not has no relevance to free will or determinism. We can be un-aware of choices that we make via free will just as we can have full knowledge of those choices. Choosing is an act of free will.
That sort of strange opinion.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by A_Seagull »

bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:08 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:28 am What is the use of feeling that we have free will if the reality is based on determinism?
You might just as well ask: Why does evolution allow some people to be deceived into thinking that determinism is the reality?
Deceived? There are empirical evidences that determinism is true.
Not really. There is no empirical evidence from which it can be concluded that the world is determined.

And without that empirical evidence any conclusions regarding determinism are nothing more than unjustified presumptions.
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:05 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:08 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm
You might just as well ask: Why does evolution allow some people to be deceived into thinking that determinism is the reality?
Deceived? There are empirical evidences that determinism is true.
Not really. There is no empirical evidence from which it can be concluded that the world is determined.

And without that empirical evidence any conclusions regarding determinism are nothing more than unjustified presumptions.
Are you aware of standard model?
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

The World is deterministic, not determined; I'm a free will and so are you.

Buck up, friend, it ain't so bad bein' a self-directed, self-responsible agent.

Pretty cool, actually.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by A_Seagull »

bahman wrote: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:06 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:05 pm
bahman wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:08 pm

Deceived? There are empirical evidences that determinism is true.
Not really. There is no empirical evidence from which it can be concluded that the world is determined.

And without that empirical evidence any conclusions regarding determinism are nothing more than unjustified presumptions.
Are you aware of standard model?
The standard model of fundamental particles? Yes of course. But I don't see what that has got to do with it.

And in any case, it is just a model.
Dubious
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by Dubious »

Dubious wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:18 am In itself it's got nothing to do with evolution. It's simply an intelligence ploy. You might as well ask...

why do we feel we have a soul

why do we believe in god

why do we believe in resurrection or reincarnation

why do we believe in anything regarding life after death

why do we believe that consciousness has a special mandate

why do we believe in anything that's not proven.

...because of one thing that is proven namely that humans are wishful thinkers believing they're far more important than they are and so create whole philosophies out of that assumption to give it structure free will being the tipping point to the whole mess. Your will however remains free to will whatever you like until sabotaged by reality.
-1- wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:04 am To sustain a parallel to the original post, we would require not asking "Why do we feel we have a soul?" etc, but "why has evolution helped us feel that we have a soul?" Etc.

Why? the general question, is not easy to answer.
What you say is true but the implication was that evolution created that degree of consciousness which resulted in the kind of intelligence humans normally possess making the idea of soul and all such speculations to be its direct consequence. I can't see anything in the processes of evolution that would cause us to feel that way, allow or disallow it, not for any explicit purpose anyways.

But human consciousness aware of death, tragedy, injustice, etc., possesses the urge not to let the lights go out. Consciousness being in a state of momentum replete with its own brand of instinctual striving desires to keep existing. This was not ordained by evolution per se which has no conception of that kind of will but contained in that which it created.
thata23
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by thata23 »

Even if free will does not exist, the fact that we can come up with thoughts in our head and put them on paper and make them into "reality" (even if this Earth isn't reality, it is still something different than a thought, meaning these thoughts exist in a different place than where they were created) is amazing and is enough to continue living. Being able to spot wrongs and fix them (social, technical, etc.) must mean there is some sort of higher force at work. The truth will always come out.
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