Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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bahman
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henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:37 pm "Aren't you a part of deterministic world?"

Yes, a deterministic world, not a determined world.

You do see the difference, yeah?
I of course see the difference and a contradiction.
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by henry quirk »

What's the contradiction?
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bahman
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:46 pm What's the contradiction?
The contradiction is that deterministic world is not determined.
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Post by henry quirk »

Deterministic, in context, means, (as example) gravity works across all environments consistently.

Determined means, in context, (as example) I'm always gonna fall on my ass when I slip on ice (which simply isn't the case).

In a determined world: the dominoes always fall.

In a deterministic world: I can reach down and interrupt the fall.

I choose; the domino can't.
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bahman
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henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm Deterministic, in context, means, (as example) gravity works across all environments consistently.
Yes.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm Determined means, in context, (as example) I'm always gonna fall on my ass when I slip on ice (which simply isn't the case).
No. Determined means that you get always the same final state given the same initial state.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm In a determined world: the dominoes always fall.
Yes.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm In a deterministic world: I can reach down and interrupt the fall.
That could be just a reflex.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm I choose; the domino can't.
Well, choosing could be an illusion. You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world.
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Post by henry quirk »

"Determined means that you get always the same final state given the same initial state."

Exactly. My point is: I determine my state, not the ice.

#

"That could be just a reflex"

Or it could be what I intend to do.

#

"choosing could be an illusion."

Or it could be real.

#

"You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world."

I think you need to prove how what seems obvious to me and you (that we each act and self-direct in the world instead of merely react and get directed) is somehow a fiction.
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bahman
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henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:12 pm "Determined means that you get always the same final state given the same initial state."

Exactly. My point is: I determine my state, not the ice.

#

"That could be just a reflex"

Or it could be what I intend to do.

#

"choosing could be an illusion."

Or it could be real.

#

"You need to prove how that is possible in a deterministic world."

I think you need to prove how what seems obvious to me and you (that we each act and self-direct in the world instead of merely react and get directed) is somehow a fiction.
What is "I" in a deterministic world? How an "I" which is manifestation of brain activity could decide on subject matter?
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Post by henry quirk »

'I', referring to me. is the on-going, discrete, organic event sitting at a terminal typing these words. I am comprised of chemicals and electricity, organized in such a way as to promote self (awareness)/identity/'I'ness.

I am not (simply) brain activity.

That's like sayin' water is just hydrogen and oxygen (technically true, but waaaay off the mark).
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henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 pm 'I', referring to me. is the on-going, discrete, organic event sitting at a terminal typing these words. I am comprised of chemicals and electricity, organized in such a way as to promote self (awareness)/identity/'I'ness.
That I agree. How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 pm I am not (simply) brain activity.
"I" is the result of brain activity. It is a conscious state and all conscious state are physical state, meaning that they are result of matter activity.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 pm That's like sayin' water is just hydrogen and oxygen (technically true, but waaaay off the mark).
Water is just a matter (hydrogen and oxygen) state.
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Post by henry quirk »

"Water is just a matter (hydrogen and oxygen) state."

Yep, and more, and you know this, just as you know you're a free will.

#

"How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?"

I am my own 'state of affairs" influenced by externals, but never determined by them.

I am not a robot or a domino. I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
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Post by henry quirk »

"Water is just a matter (hydrogen and oxygen) state."

Yep, and more, and you know this, just as you know you're a free will.

#

"How the "I" as you explained could affect the state of affair if itself is the result of state of affair?"

I am my own 'state of affairs" influenced by externals, but never determined by them.

I am not a robot or a domino. Like you, I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
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henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:42 pm I am not a robot or a domino. I begin and end causal chains and am not merely a link in one.
That is exactly the problem. How a bulk of matter could start and end causal chain when itself is subjected to causality?
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Post by henry quirk »

"That is exactly the problem. How a bulk of matter could start and end causal chain when itself is subjected to causality?"

No, the problem is that you dismiss what you know to be true (you are a free will) in favor of a construct (determinism) that can't explain 'you'.

That is: I say determinism is wrong cuz it can't explain 'me'; you say 'you' are wrong cuz you don't fit neatly into determinism.
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Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:51 pm "That is exactly the problem. How a bulk of matter could start and end causal chain when itself is subjected to causality?"

No, the problem is that you dismiss what you know to be true (you are a free will) in favor of a construct (determinism) that can't explain 'you'.

That is: I say determinism is wrong cuz it can't explain 'me'; you say 'you' are wrong cuz you don't fit neatly into determinism.
So you are not a materialist?
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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?

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thata23 wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:22 am So are you saying that all the thoughts that appear in our mind are predictable since the beginning of time, which would indicate that everything just builds on things before it and nothing is actually a new idea?
Yes, that's what I am saying, except that I assert that there are new ideas.

New ideas are predictable by super mind (which I don't believe exists, but it's a matter of belief, nothing more), not because ideas are not new, but because the new ideas are built on some predicates. They are new, but they are caused.
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