Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

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Atla
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Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Atla »

Hello, one of the philosophical stances I don't understand is this. Apologies if this has been asked a hundred million times on these boards already.

After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives / giving meaning to their own lives etc. And they suggest this solution to others too.

The results indeed seem to be very positive and desirable, leading to a generally better life experience.

When I try to process this idea, I get an error message in my head: DOES.NOT.COMPUTE.

Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless, and so on a deeper level perfectly self-refuting? How do you make it not self-refuting?
EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon »

Life isn't meaningless, just some shitty philosophers who suck at life choose to convey this. We are stacked in the rewards and punishments centers of the mind to desire some stimuli or lines of thinking, and to feel pain with others. We have a sense of beauty, one more generic and universal than the idea that beauty is in the eye of the beholder allows. While tastes can vary, some places are captivating, some women mesmerizing, and charisma can be quite catchy. We are too generic of a species to have a completely clean slate as far as meaning goes. Meaning seems part and parcel to out biology; we differentiate a wider degree, personality specialization or even a degenerative injury can push us to explore new things, but it is all done with the same senses as our ancestors, same mental faucalties as well, whatever human, in place or time. The civilizations we build are but fossilized creations of the human mind.... needs and wants, presumptions, instincts, bundled and bound tight in steel and concrete.

You can try to claim independence from others, that you are so unique that you fool even yourself, but in the end you are just keeping yourself busy, in a manner even a caveman observing could be familiar with and dissect as well as any psychoanalyst. We are all unique, each and everyone of us, just like the other. Remarkably few are inventive, and it seems more accident and opportunity than will and ideology makes that so. If you gotta make up your own meaning to existence to stave off suicide, you are so very, very fucked, as you are always going to have in the back of your mind the alternative is still suicide, and one day you'll call your own bluff, when you realize the arguments are no longer holding. Meaning isn't sustained through such trifles. A life needs more. The cycles of generation, of the continuation of community, family. Our instincts are tightly tied to that, to the point we can say ethically, consciousness is but the shadow of life. A mind not embracing living in vital respects is a mind in turmoil, seeking the reckoning to set it straight, or set it adrift to be redeemed. Resistance is futile. :shock:
surreptitious57
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Death is inevitable and so it renders completely insignificant everything that anybody does. But your life can have
meaning while it is being lived but once it is over then any meaning ceases to be. There is no contradiction in this
Because the meaningless of existence is an objective truth but the meaningfulness of your life is a subjective one
Atla
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Atla »

surreptitious57 wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:37 pm Death is inevitable and so it renders completely insignificant everything that anybody does. But your life can have
meaning while it is being lived but once it is over then any meaning ceases to be. There is no contradiction in this
Because the meaningless of existence is an objective truth but the meaningfulness of your life is a subjective one
Hmm.. but a subjective truth is subjective.. how can most people believe it at least as strongly as an objective one?
Nick_A
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Nick_A »

Atla wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am Hello, one of the philosophical stances I don't understand is this. Apologies if this has been asked a hundred million times on these boards already.

After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives / giving meaning to their own lives etc. And they suggest this solution to others too.

The results indeed seem to be very positive and desirable, leading to a generally better life experience.

When I try to process this idea, I get an error message in my head: DOES.NOT.COMPUTE.

Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless, and so on a deeper level perfectly self-refuting? How do you make it not self-refuting?

The human condition makes it so that we fail to consciously experience the big picture and instead get caught up in reacting to details. We cannot see the forest for the trees. Objective meaning for Man includes the entirety of our life. What does it serve? Since the potential to consciously retain this perspective meaning for us becomes limited to subjective opinions. Shakespeare describes it well in “All the World’s a Stage.. We see how life is subjectively meaningful at various stages but in the end it is dust to dust because we lack a conscious perspective in which objective human meaning has its place
As You Like It, Act II, Scene VII [All the world’s a stage]
William Shakespeare, 1564 - 1616

Jaques to Duke Senior

All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
Dimebag
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Dimebag »

When someone usually refers to life and meaning, they are usually referring to a question of why they exist, which would require some kind of creator to endow a purpose to them, have some kind of plan for them in mind. Once a person comes to not believe in both a creator or life after death, they see no means by which their life could have meaning, it doesn't mean anything as there is no God who gave them a purpose.

However, as one lives their life they will find certain responsibilities which will fall upon them, maybe they might identify a particular problem which exists in life, which they feel both particularly suited to solving, and particularly motivated towards doing so, maybe a persons father/mother died of cancer and they now dedicate themselves towards finding a cure or treatment. This is just one particular way in which a person might find meaning in their life. Their life is now useful for the greater good of potentially many others.

I think that is how a person can "find meaning" in life. By taking what life has thrown at them and trying to become useful, to serve a purpose which extends beyond their own survival.

Furthermore, I think it is what we are driven to do, to find meaning in life, in order to keep ourselves going.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Atla wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am Hello, one of the philosophical stances I don't understand is this. Apologies if this has been asked a hundred million times on these boards already.

After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives / giving meaning to their own lives etc. And they suggest this solution to others too.

The results indeed seem to be very positive and desirable, leading to a generally better life experience.

When I try to process this idea, I get an error message in my head: DOES.NOT.COMPUTE.

Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless, and so on a deeper level perfectly self-refuting? How do you make it not self-refuting?
What is meaning but an act of balance? Who seeks meaning when already living a balanced life?

Is life is without meaning, why do people seek meaning from other people by asking that question?
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Lacewing
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Lacewing »

Atla wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives / giving meaning to their own lives etc. .../... Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless
Good question! Yes, I think that ALL meaning is made-up. However, that doesn't make it worthless! :D Just like building a fantastic sand castle on the beach before the tide comes back in. It's fun, it's beautiful, and we might even assign meaning to it, and then the tide washes it away. Was it a waste of time and energy? Not if we enjoyed it and/or got something valuable (in the moment) out of doing it.

Human beings are the only form of life on Earth who like and need stories... and we often spin ourselves up tightly in that like some kind of bug. :) It's not necessary -- we don't have to have major stories for everything. We can have fun (and find value) playing with stories and being entertained by them consciously OR unconsciously. If we tap into being conscious about our creations every once in awhile -- then we probably won't end up being immobilized by them.

Some people freak out over the idea that life has no bigger meaning than what we make up. But for those who are comfortable with freedom, it opens up all kinds of opportunities. It's wonderful (and divine!) to see and acknowledge that we are creating meaning, joy, entertainment, all-of-it in every moment. We're not limited to certain patterns or influences, and we don't have to wait for some kind of "end point" in a big story. We can be fully vibrant in each moment... kind, loving, happy, or whatever (we don't need a god to tell us so)... and we can be at peace knowing that we'll naturally dissolve back into the Universe when our time comes. No reason to cling nor to give up early.
Atla
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Atla »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:24 pm The human condition makes it so that we fail to consciously experience the big picture and instead get caught up in reacting to details. We cannot see the forest for the trees. Objective meaning for Man includes the entirety of our life. What does it serve? Since the potential to consciously retain this perspective meaning for us becomes limited to subjective opinions. Shakespeare describes it well in “All the World’s a Stage.. We see how life is subjectively meaningful at various stages but in the end it is dust to dust because we lack a conscious perspective in which objective human meaning has its place
Maybe this is my problem, I no longer seem to have this aspect of the human condition. In my quest for understanding, at some point the big picture did become conscious for me, and now it is always in the back of my mind. I see both the forest and the trees at the same time, always two perspectives. The best I could come up with so far is just try to ignore the big picture in my everyday life as best as I can, forget about is as best as I can.
Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

Atla wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am Hello, one of the philosophical stances I don't understand is this. Apologies if this has been asked a hundred million times on these boards already.

After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives / giving meaning to their own lives etc. And they suggest this solution to others too.

The results indeed seem to be very positive and desirable, leading to a generally better life experience.

When I try to process this idea, I get an error message in my head: DOES.NOT.COMPUTE.

Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless, and so on a deeper level perfectly self-refuting? How do you make it not self-refuting?
Meaning might be found in proving much of societies negative suggestion wrong, in opening your door to the homeless, in the realization that passion is at odds with genuine love, in advising others, etc. Explain what you mean/experience in terms of these areas all being self-refuting? Remember though, should your explanation not be at least reasonably straight forward there is a distinct possibility that your concern may not exist, that you are simply just not thinking healthily/straight. Diet and exercise should always be put well ahead of any and all searching questions.
Atla
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Atla »

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:49 am Meaning might be found in proving much of societies negative suggestion wrong, in opening your door to the homeless, in the realization that passion is at odds with genuine love, in advising others, etc. Explain what you mean/experience in terms of these areas all being self-refuting? Remember though, should your explanation not be at least reasonably straight forward there is a distinct possibility that your concern may not exist, that you are simply just not thinking healthily/straight. Diet and exercise should always be put well ahead of any and all searching questions.
Not sure I can answer your question, my problem is a general one.

Meaning isn't really found, it's assigned. We assign meaning to things, to the world, but first this happens automatically, which creates the illusion of meaning being intrinsic to things. So it seems like we can search for and find meaning.

Once we see through this illusion however and realize that life is inherently meaningless, how do we make things meaningful anyway? Most people seem to have no problem with this but I always get a contradiction.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:02 am
Atla wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am After realizing that life is inherently meaningless, most people resolve the problem by finding meaning in their own lives / giving meaning to their own lives etc. .../... Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless
Good question! Yes, I think that ALL meaning is made-up. However, that doesn't make it worthless! :D Just like building a fantastic sand castle on the beach before the tide comes back in. It's fun, it's beautiful, and we might even assign meaning to it, and then the tide washes it away. Was it a waste of time and energy? Not if we enjoyed it and/or got something valuable (in the moment) out of doing it.

Human beings are the only form of life on Earth who like and need stories... and we often spin ourselves up tightly in that like some kind of bug. :)
Stories act as metaphors for the human condition, we can see this in countless myths and tales. The simple truth is the many people cannot reason or understand aspects of...well...themselves, and as a crutch the story comes into existence. And interesting question, one I have been pondering, is: "What if stories never existed?" What would the world look like? Or are stories merely shadows of a collective amnesia?

It's not necessary -- we don't have to have major stories for everything. We can have fun (and find value) playing with stories and being entertained by them consciously OR unconsciously. If we tap into being conscious about our creations every once in awhile -- then we probably won't end up being immobilized by them.

Some people freak out over the idea that life has no bigger meaning than what we make up.

But for those who are comfortable with freedom, it opens up all kinds of opportunities. It's wonderful (and divine!) to see and acknowledge that we are creating meaning, joy, entertainment, all-of-it in every moment. We're not limited to certain patterns or influences, and we don't have to wait for some kind of "end point" in a big story.
I am not sure their is an "end point" at all considering if we look at the nature of a point is always the median point of something else...usually another cycle.
We can be fully vibrant in each moment... kind, loving, happy, or whatever (we don't need a god to tell us so)... and we can be at peace knowing that we'll naturally dissolve back into the Universe when our time comes. No reason to cling nor to give up early.
If we are all extensions of the Logos, who is an uncaused cause, all acts we commit are extension of the creator himself. What is virtuous and true is of meaning as it is "being" in its entirety. What is "evil" is deficient or nothing in itself other than a limit through absence.

My point, in agreeing with you, that while meaning may be made up it does not make it an less of value, as you have already pointed out. Meaning is an ever perpetual act of creation, much of which we can see within the natural movement of the universe. It is a funny thing to observe that where people observe wickedness, through man, meaning ceases to exist...God becomes a distant memory. But when man is virtuous people do not question meaning or God. What does that say?

However, in a seperate respect, the question comes to mind: "If we are responsible for creating our own meaning...did we create that responsibility? The answer the comes my immediate mind would be that creation is meaning itself as it is inherent within the "generative" process itself. From these "generative" process we can observe "generosity", "genius", "genes", "generation"(children), etc. From this it may be implied that meaning is both created and creation, and the question of meaning is really a question of "what is the point?"

And the point, well all points are merely centers of true being.
Atla
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Atla »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:21 am What is meaning but an act of balance? Who seeks meaning when already living a balanced life?

Is life is without meaning, why do people seek meaning from other people by asking that question?
I'm not sure if meaning and balance are that closely related. I think it's more like this: usually, a meaningful life means more contenment, happiness. And a balanced life also means more contenment, happiness. So when balance is lacking, the person may try to compensate for it by looking for more meaning.

Why do people seek meaning if life is without meaning? Because the need for meaning is a natural human need, we are naturally built to be motivated, to be driven by meaningful things. And this worked for a few hundred thousand/million years until some people figured out that meaning is something we project on the world. It's all just a trick of nature.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Atla wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:40 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:21 am What is meaning but an act of balance? Who seeks meaning when already living a balanced life?

Is life is without meaning, why do people seek meaning from other people by asking that question?
I'm not sure if meaning and balance are that closely related. I think it's more like this: usually, a meaningful life means more contenment, happiness. And a balanced life also means more contenment, happiness. So when balance is lacking, the person may try to compensate for it by looking for more meaning.

How is meaning not balance if meaning acts as a form of mediation? Take for example I draw a symbol and claim it "means" "x". The symbol, in turn acts as medial point between the observe and "x". In these respects meaning, is a form of crysatalizing reality into a structure, in this case the symbol, which acts as a center point. To observe a lack of meaning, in these respects, implies a lack of clarity or structure. Balance and meaning are synonymous in the respects that they are necessary for structure...structure for order...order for being.

Why do people seek meaning if life is without meaning? Because the need for meaning is a natural human need, we are naturally built to be motivated, to be driven by meaningful things. And this worked for a few hundred thousand/million years until some people figured out that meaning is something we project on the world. It's all just a trick of nature.
Is that the meaning of meaning? Someone claimed we project meaning, what is the meaning of that exactly? Who said this discovery was recent?

Everything is a centerpoint for something else, meaning exists whether we intend it or not as the very act of observation is very act of meaning itself. We observe as a form of mediation between rationality and irrationality. Observation is the synthesis of being in the respect is acts of neutral grounds for being and non-being. We observe "x" and in turn we actualize as "z" or exterioralize "y". Observation, in these respects is a form of meaning in itself, and we can observe this in the nature of axiom as self-evidence being both subjective and objective.

Observation is the median point of irrationality and rationality.
Metazoan
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Re: Is finding your own meaning in life self-contradictory or not?

Post by Metazoan »

Hi Atla.
Atla wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:40 am...Isn't finding meaning in your life also meaningless, and so on a deeper level perfectly self-refuting? How do you make it not self-refuting?
Have you looked at The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus?

I haven't read it yet but it is on my reading list.

The jist I think is that you have three options (but this may be a third parties view):-

1) Physical suicide.
2) Philosophical suicide (religion, denial, etc.)
3) Acceptance.

Being a multiversist, idealist, and hard determinist the first option is denied me.

The second option is denied me because of why I am the above.

So the third option is all I have to play with.

I would agree that finding meaning would look like a contradiction in the same way that a compatibilist looks at free will.

Ultimately, the only thing to do is to accept the meaninglessness and find a way to be happy without demanding meaning.

As Albert Camus said: "one must imagine Sisyphus happy."

Stuffed if I know how though. I am still in the exsistential dread phase.

M.
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