Current System = Slavery

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thata23
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Current System = Slavery

Post by thata23 »

I think a valid argument can be made that if one supports an economic system that rewards some people more than others (they are valued more), then that is not much different than slavery (maybe just "relieving" the pressure a little bit and allowing the "slaves" to pursue pleasures by spending their money so they don't complain - I don't see too much of a difference between the "masters" giving the slaves of the past food and shelter so they continued on). The current system is set up so individuals or individual companies compete against each other so that the best, cheapest products can be made - due to this, intellectual property rights have to be respected or else ideas would easily be stolen. However, it would be hard to deny that the more people that see and can build on an idea, the faster and further that idea can go ("If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" - Isaac Newton). Unless you were born in a vacuum with no physical interaction with anything, all of the ideas and skills you have were learned from or built upon what previous people did. Some may say that intellectual property allows for progress since it gives people incentive to come up with an idea, invention, etc. - this of course assumes that selfishness is the primary motivation behind these acts. What if everyone were able to let their guard down and not care who gets credit and in everyone's mind, their sole purpose was to progress the human race as quickly as possible. I believe this would lead to complete transparency with everything. If every human and company were completely transparent, fraud would be virtually impossible and quality would be of the highest degree (if you deny this, then I'd argue you believe the majority of humans are inherently evil and do not care about progressing the Earth and making it better). Maybe this requires a huge leap of faith, but I think that most humans are good-natured - we have more than enough resources to keep everyone happy and cover-ups would be almost impossible (they are already very hard, why not just get to the point instead of "relieving" the pressure slowly as stated above). Please let me know your stance (whether for or against) - maybe it seems like utopia, but the only thing preventing us from this utopia is our own fear of our fellow brothers and sisters. If we are truly in this thing together, this type of society seems to be the only logical conclusion - if not, then again we are back to a slave-based society where some people are "better" than others. In the future, I think we will look back on this time as extremely unjust and wonder how we allowed it to occur, just as we look back on slavery in the United States now.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by FlashDangerpants »

That's just a complete false equivalence. Frankly it's offensively decadent to take your petty concerns and claim any similarity between those and the plight of people who were transported across oceans in putrid death ships, and then worked to death in a hot field while intermittently being raped and then sold to new rapists. That is not equivalent to you getting paid less than some guy who has more valuable skills than yours, or who works harder than you do. It is not even equivalent to some other guy having more money than you for the unfair reason that his great granddad won a game of cards.

Tear down your entire argument, start again without the foolish hyperbole.

That thing about assuming people are evil itself assumes there is only one reason to disagree with your analysis. That's not going to work for you either. You have an error of omission in the part about competition being set up so that best and cheapest products can be made. You aren't covering how competition is supposed to ensure that outcome - it is by allowing the market to determine which is the best product and the appropriate price. Your proposal abandons that mechanism but assumes it is replaced by some other process which you are not describing (I am not inclined to take your word for it that transparency is any particular solution to that unrelated question).
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

The whole technological revolution is premised on the advancement of luxury and exists if and only if these premises are cherished at the cultural level as a moral constant. In these respects, moral relativism and nihilism are an unavoidable consequence as "luxury" is strictly a subjective element that at its core is relativistic.

We can see this moral relativity not only at the secular level, but simultaneously at the religious level through evangelical protestantism being the dominant religious force in the U.S. Couple that with relativistic physics, whose only predictions were dark matter, black holes, and gravity waves (heaviness), and the current cultural atmosphere is ripe to produce chaos.

This chaos begins with the moral system, which eliminates all form of order with the exception of technological progress, and in doing so eliminates the necessary structure vital for "freedom" as "existence". Couple this with standard linear western thinking, where it is our moral imperative to "shoot towards point zero", rather than observe a cyclical form of time as "memory and structure through tradition" and what we understand of the U.S. is fundamentally a culture based upon appetite.

Animals live through appetite, and they are the easiest to master...just look at your standard meat harvesting plant. The simple truth is we were raised to be slaves, starting with ourselves.

The only way to "break free" or establish a culture respective of the human individual is through the cultural and personal emphasis on self discipline and self respect.

However, the current system is meant to exploit our weaknesses through continual "stoking" the fires of our appetites and always telling us, both men and women, there is something wrong you "you".

Add the fact that language is becoming relativistic and continually changing, through perpetual advertisement (equating "joy" with this product) and technological progress changing the way we live (so no generation can find a medial point of common life experience), and what you get is a recipe for universal "suicide".

The current culture is a culture of death...nothing more...nothing less.
thata23
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thata23 »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:39 pm That's just a complete false equivalence. Frankly it's offensively decadent to take your petty concerns and claim any similarity between those and the plight of people who were transported across oceans in putrid death ships, and then worked to death in a hot field while intermittently being raped and then sold to new rapists. That is not equivalent to you getting paid less than some guy who has more valuable skills than yours, or who works harder than you do. It is not even equivalent to some other guy having more money than you for the unfair reason that his great granddad won a game of cards.

Tear down your entire argument, start again without the foolish hyperbole.

That thing about assuming people are evil itself assumes there is only one reason to disagree with your analysis. That's not going to work for you either. You have an error of omission in the part about competition being set up so that best and cheapest products can be made. You aren't covering how competition is supposed to ensure that outcome - it is by allowing the market to determine which is the best product and the appropriate price. Your proposal abandons that mechanism but assumes it is replaced by some other process which you are not describing (I am not inclined to take your word for it that transparency is any particular solution to that unrelated question).

As I stated, it is still a relief (albeit, a great one) of slavery as people in this system are unequal. In another forum, the first response was also a personal attack, even though I come from a relatively privileged background and have a professional job. In fact, a system such as this would lower my status within society, as right now I'd say it's above most people - the problem is that anything I (or anyone else) do, people will just assume it's for money. It would bring me much greater pleasure to work very hard with people knowing that it is for the sole purpose of advancing humans. If anything, I think this would push people harder since they would feel guilty for not working as hard even though they now know people are truly equal, so there are no excuses that people can just say "he's just working hard because he's selfish". As for your response to competition vs. complete transparency, transparency is a solution because cheating and scandals would be basically impossible. All the best minds in any field would work together for the sole purpose of advancing humanity. Less developed countries have greater individual and group competition (constant fighting between factions) than more developed countries, because people in more developed countries know the value of teamwork. Is there some magical point where the value of teamwork actually becomes less than the value of competition? That seems like a cynical view of humans since that would imply the only reason humans do their best work is to beat other humans rather than advance us all for some greater universal purpose.
thedoc
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thedoc »

thata23 wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 am As for your response to competition vs. complete transparency, transparency is a solution because cheating and scandals would be basically impossible. All the best minds in any field would work together for the sole purpose of advancing humanity. Less developed countries have greater individual and group competition (constant fighting between factions) than more developed countries, because people in more developed countries know the value of teamwork. Is there some magical point where the value of teamwork actually becomes less than the value of competition? That seems like a cynical view of humans since that would imply the only reason humans do their best work is to beat other humans rather than advance us all for some greater universal purpose.
Unfortunately cooperation is not always the case. While working at a machine shop I heard the story of a person who had developed a flux for soldering aluminum but refused to share the "secret" and said he would take it to the grave with him rather than tell anyone.
thata23
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thata23 »

thedoc wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 am
Unfortunately cooperation is not always the case. While working at a machine shop I heard the story of a person who had developed a flux for soldering aluminum but refused to share the "secret" and said he would take it to the grave with him rather than tell anyone.
Well, that may have been because it helped keep his job secure - in a society where money is not a problem, this may not occur. Also, complete transparency would prevent this from happening. As for this specific case, he probably built on and combined techniques/knowledge that were found by someone else, no doubt he put effort into his work, but no one truly invents anything completely by themselves since no one is born in a vacuum.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by FlashDangerpants »

thata23 wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:39 pm That's just a complete false equivalence. Frankly it's offensively decadent to take your petty concerns and claim any similarity between those and the plight of people who were transported across oceans in putrid death ships, and then worked to death in a hot field while intermittently being raped and then sold to new rapists. That is not equivalent to you getting paid less than some guy who has more valuable skills than yours, or who works harder than you do. It is not even equivalent to some other guy having more money than you for the unfair reason that his great granddad won a game of cards.

Tear down your entire argument, start again without the foolish hyperbole.

That thing about assuming people are evil itself assumes there is only one reason to disagree with your analysis. That's not going to work for you either. You have an error of omission in the part about competition being set up so that best and cheapest products can be made. You aren't covering how competition is supposed to ensure that outcome - it is by allowing the market to determine which is the best product and the appropriate price. Your proposal abandons that mechanism but assumes it is replaced by some other process which you are not describing (I am not inclined to take your word for it that transparency is any particular solution to that unrelated question).

As I stated, it is still a relief (albeit, a great one) of slavery as people in this system are unequal. In another forum, the first response was also a personal attack, even though I come from a relatively privileged background and have a professional job.
Explain how that was a personal attack please, and then stop taking silly things personally.
Also, was that unintelligible first sentence supposed to mean something?
thata23 wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 am In fact, a system such as this would lower my status within society, as right now I'd say it's above most people - the problem is that anything I (or anyone else) do, people will just assume it's for money. It would bring me much greater pleasure to work very hard with people knowing that it is for the sole purpose of advancing humans. If anything, I think this would push people harder since they would feel guilty for not working as hard even though they now know people are truly equal, so there are no excuses that people can just say "he's just working hard because he's selfish".

All of that is just filler. you are doing nothing here to establish the slavery analogy.
thata23 wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 am As for your response to competition vs. complete transparency, transparency is a solution because cheating and scandals would be basically impossible. All the best minds in any field would work together for the sole purpose of advancing humanity. Less developed countries have greater individual and group competition (constant fighting between factions) than more developed countries, because people in more developed countries know the value of teamwork. Is there some magical point where the value of teamwork actually becomes less than the value of competition? That seems like a cynical view of humans since that would imply the only reason humans do their best work is to beat other humans rather than advance us all for some greater universal purpose.
You are not making sense. Competition between factions in a corrupt rent-seeking economy are not remotely similar to competition between companies in a market economy.

Openness to prevent scandal is not problematic in a market economy. In fact more openness is something that is regularly proposed for corporate governance purposes by market economists. Markets and open information aren't alternative solutions to the same problem, so it makes no sense to promote one as an alternative to the other.

Teamwork is part and parcel of competition, so what are you trying to say?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by FlashDangerpants »

thedoc wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 am
thata23 wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 am As for your response to competition vs. complete transparency, transparency is a solution because cheating and scandals would be basically impossible. All the best minds in any field would work together for the sole purpose of advancing humanity. Less developed countries have greater individual and group competition (constant fighting between factions) than more developed countries, because people in more developed countries know the value of teamwork. Is there some magical point where the value of teamwork actually becomes less than the value of competition? That seems like a cynical view of humans since that would imply the only reason humans do their best work is to beat other humans rather than advance us all for some greater universal purpose.
Unfortunately cooperation is not always the case. While working at a machine shop I heard the story of a person who had developed a flux for soldering aluminum but refused to share the "secret" and said he would take it to the grave with him rather than tell anyone.
That sounds like total bullshit. If the thing you describe is such a valuable trade secret then it is patent worthy and he is a moron. This is why the modern patent system was devised in the first place.
thedoc
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thedoc »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:50 pm
thedoc wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 am
thata23 wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:40 am As for your response to competition vs. complete transparency, transparency is a solution because cheating and scandals would be basically impossible. All the best minds in any field would work together for the sole purpose of advancing humanity. Less developed countries have greater individual and group competition (constant fighting between factions) than more developed countries, because people in more developed countries know the value of teamwork. Is there some magical point where the value of teamwork actually becomes less than the value of competition? That seems like a cynical view of humans since that would imply the only reason humans do their best work is to beat other humans rather than advance us all for some greater universal purpose.
Unfortunately cooperation is not always the case. While working at a machine shop I heard the story of a person who had developed a flux for soldering aluminum but refused to share the "secret" and said he would take it to the grave with him rather than tell anyone.
That sounds like total bullshit. If the thing you describe is such a valuable trade secret then it is patent worthy and he is a moron. This is why the modern patent system was devised in the first place.
The thing is that soldering any metal is relatively easy, the problem is when the metal oxidizes and the layer of oxide prevents the solder from bonding to the metal. Aluminum is especially difficult because it oxidizes very quickly but the solution is in the flux that will remove the oxide during the soldering process. It is possible that there were already several good fluxes on the market and what this man had developed was nothing new.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by FlashDangerpants »

thedoc wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:17 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:50 pm
thedoc wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 am

Unfortunately cooperation is not always the case. While working at a machine shop I heard the story of a person who had developed a flux for soldering aluminum but refused to share the "secret" and said he would take it to the grave with him rather than tell anyone.
That sounds like total bullshit. If the thing you describe is such a valuable trade secret then it is patent worthy and he is a moron. This is why the modern patent system was devised in the first place.
The thing is that soldering any metal is relatively easy, the problem is when the metal oxidizes and the layer of oxide prevents the solder from bonding to the metal. Aluminum is especially difficult because it oxidizes very quickly but the solution is in the flux that will remove the oxide during the soldering process. It is possible that there were already several good fluxes on the market and what this man had developed was nothing new.
That makes it seem like you also think the story is bullshit.
thedoc
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thedoc »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:43 pm
thedoc wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:17 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:50 pm
That sounds like total bullshit. If the thing you describe is such a valuable trade secret then it is patent worthy and he is a moron. This is why the modern patent system was devised in the first place.
The thing is that soldering any metal is relatively easy, the problem is when the metal oxidizes and the layer of oxide prevents the solder from bonding to the metal. Aluminum is especially difficult because it oxidizes very quickly but the solution is in the flux that will remove the oxide during the soldering process. It is possible that there were already several good fluxes on the market and what this man had developed was nothing new.
That makes it seem like you also think the story is bullshit.
No, I think the man actually thought he had developed something special but was being selfish about it in keeping it to himself. As long as he didn't tell anyone else what he had found, there was no way for someone else to tell him that something like it already existed. I believe he was self employed so there was no question of job security, just being selfish and not trusting anyone else.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by FlashDangerpants »

thedoc wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:02 pm No, I think the man actually thought he had developed something special but was being selfish about it in keeping it to himself. As long as he didn't tell anyone else what he had found, there was no way for someone else to tell him that something like it already existed. I believe he was self employed so there was no question of job security, just being selfish and not trusting anyone else.
I'm sorry. A welder creates a welding thing for a weld that other welders can do... and there's no way to tell him that other welders can do that thing?
thedoc
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thedoc »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:05 pm
thedoc wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:02 pm No, I think the man actually thought he had developed something special but was being selfish about it in keeping it to himself. As long as he didn't tell anyone else what he had found, there was no way for someone else to tell him that something like it already existed. I believe he was self employed so there was no question of job security, just being selfish and not trusting anyone else.
I'm sorry. A welder creates a welding thing for a weld that other welders can do... and there's no way to tell him that other welders can do that thing?
In college I learned how to teach young boys about industrial arts including metalworking and drafting. After I quit teaching I got into industry in machine shops and as a draftsman. I soon found out that what I was supposed to teach in class was mostly wrong compared to what I learned in industry. I came to the conclusion that the longer a skill taught in schools was separated from the actual practice, the more it differed from what was Standard practice in industry. The teaching was altered to suit the teaching rather than what happened in industry. It got to the point that I would rather go to work sick than have to reteach what a substitute had taught wrong or different from what I was teaching. Across the hall was the wood shop, and the teacher there had to take a day off, and his sub told the students to "never short chuck a drill bit", but drill bits were regularly "short chucked" in industry.

BTW I think your analogy with welders is good.
thata23
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by thata23 »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:48 pm
You are not making sense. Competition between factions in a corrupt rent-seeking economy are not remotely similar to competition between companies in a market economy.

Openness to prevent scandal is not problematic in a market economy. In fact more openness is something that is regularly proposed for corporate governance purposes by market economists. Markets and open information aren't alternative solutions to the same problem, so it makes no sense to promote one as an alternative to the other.

Teamwork is part and parcel of competition, so what are you trying to say?
Why is competition not the same in these two situations? Yes, one is "higher-level", but still, the goal of the company is to profit more than other companies. Because of this, it's advantageous for companies to keep secrets, even though that may not be advantageous for society. What is preventing these secrets from being released is that they may end up in the hands of another company that may beat them or a "rogue" nation. Again, if we all 100% trusted and relied on each other, no one would care that they ended up in the hands of these other people. As to teamwork being "part and parcel" of competition - okay, how about humanity is one team and the competition is all the answers of the universe - would that be good enough competition? When people work for companies, whatever they discover or create there is the company's "property" (not sure exactly the proper word) because companies know that without all the other people working in the company, their discovery or creation probably would not have occurred. Analogously, if someone discovers or creates anything on this Earth, there is no way they would have done it without people before or around them - therefore, it is the property of all of humanity. This is not to say these people won't get praised for driving us all forward, but eventually we may reach a point where everyone's thoughts are totally linked, so that it won't really matter who came up with an idea - it is just a part of one hive mind driving all of humanity forward.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Current System = Slavery

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Look, you are just writing a wall of text with a stream of largely unlinked ideas. I don't have the inclination work through half baked notions of replacing capitalism with this or that other stuff if you can't credibly describe the workings of your own idea or the resoundingly obvious differences between those two forms of competition you highlighted.

I engaged with you because you used terrible hyperbole with the slavery analogy. But now you are doing sci-fi shit with hive minds, and I just can't be bothered with that.
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