Sales is a skill, not a talent

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Walker wrote: โ†‘Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:42 pm I once heard that top salesmen sell dreams.
Is that true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... zMChU1gVBI
Not by me. Prospects sell themselves.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

I practice what I refer to as analytical selling. Here's another aspect to it.

Over 10 years ago before there was a federal do-not-call list in the US, telemarketer's tried to dominate or control conversations using objection rebuttals. When the federal DNC list came about around 2003, between 1 to 2 million telemarketers lost their jobs and billions of dollars went down the drain.

The pity to this is it didn't have to be. The rebuttals on balance don't sell. You can sell better without them. Every rebuttal has a sales point embedded within. Wouldn't you say it's easier to sell if you weren't trying to change somebody's declination into a yes? Just take the sales point and make it part of your presentation. Then after you make your presentation, the prospect would know more about the offer and more likely to give a yes as a part of his decision making. So by avoiding trying to change someone's mind, your chances are greater at selling.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

FDP said:

"So what is the quality of the evidence you cite. Have you been to all the sales floors in the world and observed all the sales techniques and all the people who deploy them? NOPE."

This is BS FDP. Overlooking sampling which says you don't have to be everywhere, just have a large enough sample, an error on your part. Read up on sampling techniques from the internet (frequently done in surveys during elections and marketing). So how big a sample is needed? Certainly not everybody as you claim.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
Walker
Posts: 14280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Walker »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:19 pm I practice what I refer to as analytical selling. Here's another aspect to it.

Over 10 years ago before there was a federal do-not-call list in the US, telemarketer's tried to dominate or control conversations using objection rebuttals. When the federal DNC list came about around 2003, between 1 to 2 million telemarketers lost their jobs and billions of dollars went down the drain.

The pity to this is it didn't have to be. The rebuttals on balance don't sell. You can sell better without them. Every rebuttal has a sales point embedded within. Wouldn't you say it's easier to sell if you weren't trying to change somebody's declination into a yes? Just take the sales point and make it part of your presentation. Then after you make your presentation, the prospect would know more about the offer and more likely to give a yes as a part of his decision making. So by avoiding trying to change someone's mind, your chances are greater at selling.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
That makes sense.

At first contact, three entities exist. They are the buyer, the seller, and the objection.

Rather than forming an alliance with the objection, the seller forms an alliance with the buyer.

The buyer/seller alliance then becomes a new single entity, which is separate from the objection entity.

Itโ€™s the same principle used in management.
A problem becomes the third entity, removed from the manager/employee entity.

The manager/employee, or the seller/buyer, then collaborates to solve the separate problem/objection, which is now distant and distinct.

This changes the really old paradigm of seller/objection entity, attempting to solve the buyer entity.

Learning methods how to do this is a skill made easier with the paradigm shift.

*

Ricky Roma talks nonsense, but that doesnโ€™t matter.
The seller/buyer alliance matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru7ytSQdH_k
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

FlashDangerpants wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:26 pm You are a minor sales drone at the cheap end of the market.... and stop getting pissy about the fact you are a small time hustler.

:lol:
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Somebody misquoted FDP so here's the actual quote:

"You are a minor sales drone at the cheap end of the market. But that isn't interesting, and it's not what I'm hung up on. I am just irritated that yet again you are being useless at philosophy."

Not interesting? Why post it then? It's interesting that FDP makes statements when he's never been at any of the places I worked at so how would he know then? It's a fact that at all these workplaces where I employed my sales system, supervisors and co-workers asked me how I did it (which I didn't answer as I was in competition then). Aside from commission, I've earned a sales trophy award and I can offer other evidence. FDP is hung up on who you work for instead of focusing on what you did so his creampuff arguments don't accomplish much except to distract from the real issues. Why not ask me what you want to know? There is no such thing as sales talent.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Of course there are talented salespeople. They generally have a magnetic and persuasive personality and an ability to sound as if they really know what they are talking about. It's not exactly the most admirable talent around, although a really good salesperson will instinctively know what their buyer wants to hear. If I really want to buy something it's not going to make a squat of difference how good the salesperson is.
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

It's interesting that in workplaces that use scripts, two people can have far different results even though you say the same exact thing. Plus there are those with pleasant-sounding voices who fail at selling while those with voices that grate on the ears succeed at selling (from personal experience).

My personality nor voice didn't change, but my sales sure did.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
Celebritydiscodave2
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:42 pm There are those who believe it's a talent. I don't based on over ten years of study.

I became highly skilled at it which started with "Whoever speaks first, loses." There are those who believe it's a natural talent that can be developed. I don't see a basis for this belief. If a person did have such a talent, then it would be expressed at an early age with no other explanation for it (also how would one define what lies behind the so called natural talent besides the ability to sell a lot?)

What are your thoughts?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
I`d totally agree, and even based on no study whatsoever. Any and all abilities where money is to be made tend to being over ranked.
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

In response to FDP where he brings up other companies such as Microsoft and Boeing, there can be a number of different factors so one may not be comparing apples with apples, but rather apples with oranges. If the product/service is a popular one, the quota may be higher than the industry standard.

For me money (commission) is important as a measure of sales performance, but there are more worthwhile things (e.g. customer service).

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
User avatar
FlashDangerpants
Posts: 6266
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:49 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: โ†‘Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:16 am If that is intended as a response to my post it is a straw man attack.
The fact that you can also teach a skill is not contradictory to anything I have written.

And this...
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:41 pm Your argument is fallacious because you're saying these people have no talent and the evidence contradicts you.
Well that's just sad Phil. Look at what I quoted there.
Now look at the title of the thread.
Then look again at the quote.
That's just self defeating stupidity.

Now. About this philosophy stuff. Address my concerns about the standard of your empirical data gathering please.
Don't try to deflect towards some imaginary data debt I am carrying, yours is the burden of proof here.
Not a straw man fallacy. You contend that people have natural sales ability which I say doesn't exist because it can be explained (and I don't mean by voice nor personality which are the common assumptions with a natural talent). So if it can be explained as I have, then it can be taught as I have.

Now you want to know about my empirical data gathering. Since my system was developed over ten years, then where do I begin with you? (and keep in mind that a part of it is a trade secret and shall remain so). Furthermore you don't strike me as being open minded so you may have a mental block towards anything I may offer. For example do you want me to use quotas or compare with my coworkers (or both?) I didn't keep all the records you may be looking for. Do you know basic statistics? What do you consider to be a suitable-sized sample?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
Your empirical data set is not representative though. As I have already pointed out, you only sell cheap shit to consumers. That's a corner of the sales profession not an overview. You definitely don't have experience of big ticket sales, otherwise you wouldn't have bragged about a 3 grand TV sale. You don't have experience of any sales process lasting more than a few minutes so far as I can see. You don't have experience of building long term sales relationships. Nor of selling to businesses.

Whether there is such a thing as sales talent or not isn't interesting to me really. What I want you to understand is the deep logical flaws in your argument whereby you express knowledge of things you clearly don't know along with a flat assertion that selling a fleet of corporate jets, or international oil trading, or slinging heroin on a street corner is not different to whatever low cost crap you are selling to housewives today.

As I have mentioned already, if you are as good a salesman as any in existence, you should be able to go to work somewhere that has a long involved sales process and still be top dog. You should be able to sell yourself in the interview and get the job, and then you should earn millions of dollars a year. That is what somebody with sales talent would do after all.

Your data is useless. You haven't gathered your it from an environment where you would expect to observe genuine talent.

Think of pro sportsmen. They have talent for basketball or whatever right? If you joined a basketball team at your office and found nobody was talented there, but you could become the best in the team with some simple hoop practice, your current methodology allows you to loudly announce there is no such thing as a talent for basketball.
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

FlashDangerpants wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:33 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:49 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: โ†‘Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:16 am If that is intended as a response to my post it is a straw man attack.
The fact that you can also teach a skill is not contradictory to anything I have written.

And this...

Well that's just sad Phil. Look at what I quoted there.
Now look at the title of the thread.
Then look again at the quote.
That's just self defeating stupidity.

Now. About this philosophy stuff. Address my concerns about the standard of your empirical data gathering please.
Don't try to deflect towards some imaginary data debt I am carrying, yours is the burden of proof here.
Not a straw man fallacy. You contend that people have natural sales ability which I say doesn't exist because it can be explained (and I don't mean by voice nor personality which are the common assumptions with a natural talent). So if it can be explained as I have, then it can be taught as I have.

Now you want to know about my empirical data gathering. Since my system was developed over ten years, then where do I begin with you? (and keep in mind that a part of it is a trade secret and shall remain so). Furthermore you don't strike me as being open minded so you may have a mental block towards anything I may offer. For example do you want me to use quotas or compare with my coworkers (or both?) I didn't keep all the records you may be looking for. Do you know basic statistics? What do you consider to be a suitable-sized sample?

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
Your empirical data set is not representative though. As I have already pointed out, you only sell cheap shit to consumers. That's a corner of the sales profession not an overview. You definitely don't have experience of big ticket sales, otherwise you wouldn't have bragged about a 3 grand TV sale. You don't have experience of any sales process lasting more than a few minutes so far as I can see. You don't have experience of building long term sales relationships. Nor of selling to businesses.

Whether there is such a thing as sales talent or not isn't interesting to me really. What I want you to understand is the deep logical flaws in your argument whereby you express knowledge of things you clearly don't know along with a flat assertion that selling a fleet of corporate jets, or international oil trading, or slinging heroin on a street corner is not different to whatever low cost crap you are selling to housewives today.

As I have mentioned already, if you are as good a salesman as any in existence, you should be able to go to work somewhere that has a long involved sales process and still be top dog. You should be able to sell yourself in the interview and get the job, and then you should earn millions of dollars a year. That is what somebody with sales talent would do after all.

Your data is useless. You haven't gathered your it from an environment where you would expect to observe genuine talent.

Think of pro sportsmen. They have talent for basketball or whatever right? If you joined a basketball team at your office and found nobody was talented there, but you could become the best in the team with some simple hoop practice, your current methodology allows you to loudly announce there is no such thing as a talent for basketball.
It's all relative to the market. Within each market, there is competition. You talk about cheap. I bet you don't have experience with these type of markets. Therefore you don't know how to sell in the areas I've worked in. Your logic is flawed because you don't consider the competition.

Here's something else to consider. Suppose everybody sold well due to my methods. Then how could you say that anyone is sales talented?

As far as cheap goes, many prospects assume that a "cheap" price means inferior quality and you would be asked "what's the catch?" My method overcomes that difficulty..Are you one of those who believes in controlling the conversation? You seem to be focused on money while there's more to selling

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
User avatar
FlashDangerpants
Posts: 6266
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm It's all relative to the market. Within each market, there is competition. You talk about cheap. I bet you don't have experience with these type of markets. Therefore you don't know how to sell in the areas I've worked in. Your logic is flawed because you don't consider the competition.
Correct up to a point. I have no idea how to do sales dronery of the sort you specialise in. But that is why my logic isn't flawed. I recognise that if I make a generalisation about all of sales based my own limited experience, I would be no better than you, cherry picking from data from an incomplete set. And that would make my theory unsubstantiated. Like yours is.

Which is why I am not proposing one (also the topic is boring and I wouldn't waste my time generating a theory).
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm Here's something else to consider. Suppose everybody sold well due to my methods. Then how could you say that anyone is sales talented?
I gave you a suggestion for testing that already. Sell yourself in an interview at a company which sells big ticket items to companies, soar to the top of their sales pyramid - which you can do as you are the only person with this proprietary sales mechanism. After that, we can discuss your hypothetical thought experiment.

Although there is not much point as the question you pose is sufficient but not necessary, so a waste of time.
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm As far as cheap goes, many prospects assume that a "cheap" price means inferior quality and you would be asked "what's the catch?" My method overcomes that difficulty..Are you one of those who believes in controlling the conversation? You seem to be focused on money while there's more to selling

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
All your stuff is cheap. You sell it all to consumers. It isn't even the most expensive stuff they buy - cars and houses and pensions and so on. Stop trying to accuse me of writing other things than I am, I don't care if what you are selling is the most expensive stuff in whatever product category it inhabits, that product category is not big ticket stuff and that's all there is to it. Don't straw man me like that.

My basketball analogy for your argument is still in play by the way. Don't ignore it.
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 5621
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:39 am

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

FlashDangerpants wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:53 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm It's all relative to the market. Within each market, there is competition. You talk about cheap. I bet you don't have experience with these type of markets. Therefore you don't know how to sell in the areas I've worked in. Your logic is flawed because you don't consider the competition.
Correct up to a point. I have no idea how to do sales dronery of the sort you specialise in. But that is why my logic isn't flawed. I recognise that if I make a generalisation about all of sales based my own limited experience, I would be no better than you, cherry picking from data from an incomplete set. And that would make my theory unsubstantiated. Like yours is.

Which is why I am not proposing one (also the topic is boring and I wouldn't waste my time generating a theory).
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm Here's something else to consider. Suppose everybody sold well due to my methods. Then how could you say that anyone is sales talented?
I gave you a suggestion for testing that already. Sell yourself in an interview at a company which sells big ticket items to companies, soar to the top of their sales pyramid - which you can do as you are the only person with this proprietary sales mechanism. After that, we can discuss your hypothetical thought experiment.
Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm As far as cheap goes, many prospects assume that a "cheap" price means inferior quality and you would be asked "what's the catch?" My method overcomes that difficulty..Are you one of those who believes in controlling the conversation? You seem to be focused on money while there's more to selling

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
All your stuff is cheap. You sell it all to consumers. It isn't even the most expensive stuff they buy - cars and houses and pensions and so on. Stop trying to accuse me of writing other things than I am, I don't care if what you are selling is the most expensive stuff in whatever product category it inhabits, that product category is not big ticket stuff and that's all there is to it. Don't straw man me like that.

My basketball analogy for your argument is still in play by the way. Don't ignore it.
One of the things that would hamper my interviews is my varied background (interviewers prefer those that list one or two jobs on their resumes), another drawback is my age. So not all applicants are equal. In any case I'm enjoying my retirement.

So far your straw man arguments fail to persuade.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
User avatar
FlashDangerpants
Posts: 6266
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Sales is a skill, not a talent

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: โ†‘Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:05 pm One of the things that would hamper my interviews is my varied background (interviewers prefer those that list one or two jobs on their resumes), another drawback is my age. So not all applicants are equal. In any case I'm enjoying my retirement.

So far your straw man arguments fail to persuade.

PhilX ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
So you aren't as talented at selling as other people who can get through those interviews by selling the experiences they do have as a positive.

You are only using the words straw man here because you saw me write them and you thought you would join in.
Post Reply