The Ideal Ideology

For all things philosophical.

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thata23
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Re:

Post by thata23 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:11 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:31 am
"there would not be a "delay" in getting things done as every person would know exactly their role"

How will folks arrive at this knowing?
Trial and error until everything starts flowing smoothly.

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: Re:

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:34 pm

thata23 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:22 am
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:17 pm
"a money based system"

That's right, and thank god for it.

Money is a reservoir of value, a practical convenience, divorced from personality, philosophy, ideology, and prejudice.

If you have it (along with native talent and drive) you are considerably more 'free' than if you don't.

Folks of a particular persuasion crow about economic inequity, but such folks target wrong. The inequity is in native drive and talent, and there's nuthin' to be done about that. Embracing communitarianism and going cashless will still leave us with the stupid and weak who'll have to be cared for by the smart and strong. This idea that "people could do whatever they wanted to do" under your scheme really means the parasite population would grow as the producing population works that much harder to support them.

You're lookin' to usher in a 'utopia' that, like all strains of communitarianism, goes against the grain of human nature (positive self-interest), a utopia that rewards the worst expression of self-interest (parasitism) and punishes the capable.

As I say up-thread, no doubt one day your utopia (or sumthin' very much like it) will 'be', but only after folks like you have degraded human nature, obliterated it, ground it under heel into the pavement. That it is: you're gonna have to remake 'man' in your own image, but first, you have negate 'individual'.

As I also say up-thread: I won't participate in such shenanigans.

*Again: you and yours will have an easier time of it tomorrow if you deal with throwbacks like myself today.

*best free advice I can give any communitarian...would be wise not to dismiss it
I disagree with the fact that there's "nothing to be done about that" and that the people are "stupid and weak". I think they view the people who have money today as truly fake people with too much self-importance and that they are just using social gestures and kindness to get ahead rather than hard work. In this new moneyless society, we would see who truly wanted to work and make society a better place. In the current system, lack of communication (or fake communication) to others can be beneficial/neutral to the individual, whereas in a community based system that behavior would make them outcast very quickly and there would not be a "delay" in getting things done as every person would know exactly their role rather than one person making a lot of money by doing the job of one that could be done by multiple people.
How in the first place do you know that anybody would want to work if there were no money? Say half the working population did n`t, that should n`t surprize anyone, how would you support those? Say these outcasts became the majority, that seems likely, how would you make it work then? The people that have lots of money may likely go on expecting lots of money, how do you deal with those?

thedoc
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Re: Re:

Post by thedoc » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:21 pm

thata23 wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:11 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:31 am
"there would not be a "delay" in getting things done as every person would know exactly their role"

How will folks arrive at this knowing?
Trial and error until everything starts flowing smoothly.
Bull Shit! not everyone has the same idea about what needs to be done and things will never flow smoothly as long as that is the case. What is your solution, to eliminate everyone who doesn't agree with you?

thata23
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Re: Re:

Post by thata23 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:34 am

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:34 pm

How in the first place do you know that anybody would want to work if there were no money? Say half the working population did n`t, that should n`t surprize anyone, how would you support those? Say these outcasts became the majority, that seems likely, how would you make it work then? The people that have lots of money may likely go on expecting lots of money, how do you deal with those?
What else would people do all day? Why do you say that half the population would not want to work - maybe they just don't work today because they feel the system is rigged. The people who work just for money usually aren't the best for the job anyway and many are just good at using people.

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:18 pm

But they do work today, not everybody that can work, and obviously not, but you do n`t seem to realize just how successful our present system actually is. We`ve arrived with it through a natural progression, and hence it is already on the optimal path for longer term even greater success. We are dealing in human beings, and so no system is ever going to change their traits of character to that of a different species, the underlying traits will remain. They might become expressed in different ways, and on different levels, but fundamental change takes thousands of years, if ever at all. Now you want to throw a spanner in the works of these thousands of years of society getting its act together, and in the belief that everything will change for the better. You do n`t even seem to consider that there might be any adverse risk attached. As a rule of thumb, if you take one building block out of social functionality a considerable amount of the rest comes crumbling down, and you can find this out the hard way. Not unless you want to control the population through fear?

thata23
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by thata23 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:58 am

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:18 pm
But they do work today, not everybody that can work, and obviously not, but you do n`t seem to realize just how successful our present system actually is. We`ve arrived with it through a natural progression, and hence it is already on the optimal path for longer term even greater success. We are dealing in human beings, and so no system is ever going to change their traits of character to that of a different species, the underlying traits will remain. They might become expressed in different ways, and on different levels, but fundamental change takes thousands of years, if ever at all. Now you want to throw a spanner in the works of these thousands of years of society getting its act together, and in the belief that everything will change for the better. You do n`t even seem to consider that there might be any adverse risk attached. As a rule of thumb, if you take one building block out of social functionality a considerable amount of the rest comes crumbling down, and you can find this out the hard way. Not unless you want to control the population through fear?
Yes, I see your points and they are valid, making a huge change so quickly would probably lead to disaster in the short term. No, not fear - I just feel that this money-less society is eventually where we are headed and we can just let people do what they want, as long as they're not harming others. I truly believe that people overall would do the right thing and in fact, society would advance faster as more risks could be taken since no money would be lost. The basic necessities (food, shelter, etc.) would just be provided by good people who liked doing their part and took pride in their work.

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:56 pm

What you envisage is a whole new world, but in might take hundreds of years, if ever, before people would fundamentally change that much. Initially much of most people`s time might be taken up in planning how to reinvent the familiar system, and meanwhile the country would be on its knees, we`d be bankrupt, worse than third world. Perhaps the price for no money is too high? As for a gradual and natural progression there, possibly, should you count nuclear devastation as natural progression, but highly unlikely, for it`s not currently even a logical progression, we are not progressing in that direction on any single level. Do you know otherwise? We are all quite happy with having the use of money, and even if most of us think that we have not got enough. We want forever more, and we`d have to be wanting forever less before such a system would even begin to be accepted. It would mean going full circle, and I believe the circle to be an endless one. Sure, in the ideal world, and if the ideal world were even possible, perhaps a money less system would work to advantage, but it would be a mighty complex system, very difficult to imagine., and we`d be significantly different beings to the beings which we are today. There would likely have to be very few of us, and the whole world would have to operate a similar highly complex system of reward. There would not be the corruption associated with money but this corruption would likely be replaced by others, and total corruption might even be increased. Money is only an instrument of corruption, there is corruption around money because there has to be corruption somewhere, it is simply as consequence to being human that we are corrupt.

thata23
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by thata23 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:08 am

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:56 pm
What you envisage is a whole new world, but in might take hundreds of years, if ever, before people would fundamentally change that much. Initially much of most people`s time might be taken up in planning how to reinvent the familiar system, and meanwhile the country would be on its knees, we`d be bankrupt, worse than third world. Perhaps the price for no money is too high? As for a gradual and natural progression there, possibly, should you count nuclear devastation as natural progression, but highly unlikely, for it`s not currently even a logical progression, we are not progressing in that direction on any single level. Do you know otherwise? We are all quite happy with having the use of money, and even if most of us think that we have not got enough. We want forever more, and we`d have to be wanting forever less before such a system would even begin to be accepted. It would mean going full circle, and I believe the circle to be an endless one. Sure, in the ideal world, and if the ideal world were even possible, perhaps a money less system would work to advantage, but it would be a mighty complex system, very difficult to imagine., and we`d be significantly different beings to the beings which we are today. There would likely have to be very few of us, and the whole world would have to operate a similar highly complex system of reward. There would not be the corruption associated with money but this corruption would likely be replaced by others, and total corruption might even be increased. Money is only an instrument of corruption, there is corruption around money because there has to be corruption somewhere, it is simply as consequence to being human that we are corrupt.
But today, money is used by many men simply as a way to reproduce (as otherwise these men would not be able to find women due to undesirable traits), causing intense problems and predatory behaviors by these humans against those who don't need it to reproduce / get women and are therefore less ruthless. I would argue this divide is a major cause of many social issues today (including crime, racism, etc). Without money, nature would be able to take its course and I really believe people would come together and help each other much more and be even more willing to learn knowing that they won't get used / taken advantage of and are simply doing it out of natural curiosity and desire to help society.

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:46 am

"Nature", so you are talking about a journey back in our social evolution, to living more naturally, to becoming better animals again? Money buying relationships? So you are advocating what then, to the least well educated doing the most reproducing. Actually, is that not already the case? Do n`t you think that there is already enough sexually prioritized relationships, without trying to make this the universal standard. Many girls already tend to go for those they most fancy, do n`t they, thinking that they can reinvent them after that. Money is a big draw too, sure, but if it were not the so called corruption of money being the draw it would in turn likely become the so called corruption of something else, perhaps whatever other commodity which you propose should replace money. Remove one vehicle for human traits and they will simply emerge by another. Success in the absence of money would simply resurface as success elsewhere, and it is success which is your problem, not money. Money is an advantage, for it provides security for both the relationship, and the family to come, and what is it that you are suggesting should be avoided in there being security?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:46 pm

"I really believe people would come together and help each other much more and be even more willing to learn knowing that they won't get used / taken advantage of and are simply doing it out of natural curiosity and desire to help society."

Which leaves you with undesirables (like me) who don't share your optimistic view of man.

Folks like me are the sugar in your gas tank, and you're gonna have to flush us out sooner or later.

Celebritydiscodave2
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by Celebritydiscodave2 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:54 am

Why would n`t they get used so much?

thata23
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Re: The Ideal Ideology

Post by thata23 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:28 am

Celebritydiscodave2 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:46 am
"Nature", so you are talking about a journey back in our social evolution, to living more naturally, to becoming better animals again? Money buying relationships? So you are advocating what then, to the least well educated doing the most reproducing. Actually, is that not already the case? Do n`t you think that there is already enough sexually prioritized relationships, without trying to make this the universal standard. Many girls already tend to go for those they most fancy, do n`t they, thinking that they can reinvent them after that. Money is a big draw too, sure, but if it were not the so called corruption of money being the draw it would in turn likely become the so called corruption of something else, perhaps whatever other commodity which you propose should replace money. Remove one vehicle for human traits and they will simply emerge by another. Success in the absence of money would simply resurface as success elsewhere, and it is success which is your problem, not money. Money is an advantage, for it provides security for both the relationship, and the family to come, and what is it that you are suggesting should be avoided in there being security?
Girls naturally know who the best men to reproduce with are. The ones causing problems are those that use people and horde money since they know without doing that, they would never be able to get a girl. I'm saying that if we just let this play out without the jealous men throwing wrenches into the system, we'd have a much more peaceful world. Life would consist of people working in the day with a few true leaders and then having fun at night with genetically fit individuals who are not bound to the genetically unfit who are so insecure they feel the need to control others since they have no control over themselves.

thata23
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Re:

Post by thata23 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:31 am

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:46 pm
"I really believe people would come together and help each other much more and be even more willing to learn knowing that they won't get used / taken advantage of and are simply doing it out of natural curiosity and desire to help society."

Which leaves you with undesirables (like me) who don't share your optimistic view of man.

Folks like me are the sugar in your gas tank, and you're gonna have to flush us out sooner or later.
The reason you have a pessimistic view of humans is because you have a pessimistic view of yourself. It's people like you who feel the need to control others because you don't have control over yourself and are probably genetically unfit, kind of like slave owners of the past.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 am

"The reason you have a pessimistic view of humans is because..."

...I deal with 'em everyday, in large numbers.

#

"you have a pessimistic view of yourself"

Nope. I'm rather pleased with myself most of the time. It's the rest of you people that grind my gears.

#

"It's people like you who feel the need to control others"

You really need to re-read the thread. I'm the guy adviocating 'mind your own business; keep your hands to yourself (or else)'. I'm no more interested in controlling than I am in being controlled.

#

"you don't have control over yourself"

As a self-employed man, with no debt, in good health, who is fit (physically and psychologically), I'm bettin' I'm more in control of 'me' than you'll ever be over yourself. Which one of us craves to free of responsibility (like a child)? Which one of us wants to the license to do as he pleases (while some one else foots the bill)?

Seems to me: you lack self-control, avoid responsibility, seek a utopia that allows you to wallow in childhood.

#

"are probably genetically unfit"

Everything works, so...*shrug*

#

"Girls naturally know who the best men to reproduce with are."

You really need to get out and take a look at things as they are.

#

"a much more peaceful world"

Translation: a child's playground.

#

"a few true leaders"

Translation: the Politburo.

thata23
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Re:

Post by thata23 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:28 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 am
"The reason you have a pessimistic view of humans is because..."

...I deal with 'em everyday, in large numbers.

#

"you have a pessimistic view of yourself"

Nope. I'm rather pleased with myself most of the time. It's the rest of you people that grind my gears.

#

"It's people like you who feel the need to control others"

You really need to re-read the thread. I'm the guy adviocating 'mind your own business; keep your hands to yourself (or else)'. I'm no more interested in controlling than I am in being controlled.

#

"you don't have control over yourself"

As a self-employed man, with no debt, in good health, who is fit (physically and psychologically), I'm bettin' I'm more in control of 'me' than you'll ever be over yourself. Which one of us craves to free of responsibility (like a child)? Which one of us wants to the license to do as he pleases (while some one else foots the bill)?

Seems to me: you lack self-control, avoid responsibility, seek a utopia that allows you to wallow in childhood.

#

"are probably genetically unfit"

Everything works, so...*shrug*

#

"Girls naturally know who the best men to reproduce with are."

You really need to get out and take a look at things as they are.

#

"a much more peaceful world"

Translation: a child's playground.

#

"a few true leaders"

Translation: the Politburo.
People like you who are in leadership positions at corporations always seem to get mad at me and others who they know are simply better for either working harder, doing things they can't, and overall making them feel insecure since deep down, they know the girls want people other than them. I do see things as they are, and girls will fake like guys for money. Without money, these insecure men would be weeded out very quickly and things would still get done. You are the child for doubting the integrity of other human beings, and that is sick.

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