On Darkness

[Eodnhoj7]

The simple truth is that we live in dark times.

Ignorance has become understanding...understanding has become ignorance.

What philosophy has once deemed and valued as "truth" has been corrupted by the perpetual chaos of relativism. It is the darkness that not only soils the intellect but is the soil which buries the true light of "reason".

What is one to do in these times? How is one to establish order in chaos? But most importantly what is "truth"?

These three questions must be the seeds planted within the ignorance of these times. They must be watered and taken care of in order so that they may grow. And once they grow, and they will grow, they will produce a tree from which we will gather further fruits. These fruits will nourish us and provide the seeds of "further questions" which must be planted. From one tree comes and orchard, from one orchard a forest, from one forest the ability to start a new civilization...a new way of life.

For we all know what "has been done before" does not work now.

No one starts a riot over a discovery in chemistry. No one storms the streets for justice upon the discover of new "mathematical" equation. But change does come through questioning. Socrates over threw the gods through a simple "?"...why can't we?

[FlashDangerpants]

What philosophy has once deemed and valued as "truth" has been corrupted by the perpetual chaos of relativism. It is the darkness that not only soils the intellect but is the soil which buries the true light of "reason".
[...]
These three questions must be the seeds planted within the ignorance of these times. They must be watered and taken care of in order so that they may grow. And once they grow, and they will grow, they will produce a tree from which we will gather further fruits. These fruits will nourish us and provide the seeds of "further questions" which must be planted. From one tree comes and orchard, from one orchard a forest, from one forest the ability to start a new civilization...a new way of life.

They way you tortured those poor metaphors made my scrotum climb up my anus for safety. Now I demand you sing a lullaby to my butthole until my meat and two veg feel safe enough to descend.

[Eodnhoj7]

What philosophy has once deemed and valued as "truth" has been corrupted by the perpetual chaos of relativism. It is the darkness that not only soils the intellect but is the soil which buries the true light of "reason".
[...]
These three questions must be the seeds planted within the ignorance of these times. They must be watered and taken care of in order so that they may grow. And once they grow, and they will grow, they will produce a tree from which we will gather further fruits. These fruits will nourish us and provide the seeds of "further questions" which must be planted. From one tree comes and orchard, from one orchard a forest, from one forest the ability to start a new civilization...a new way of life.

They way you tortured those poor metaphors made my scrotum climb up my anus for safety. Now I demand you sing a lullaby to my butthole until my meat and two veg feel safe enough to descend.

Considering your head is already up there it might be easier if you do it yourself...efficiency can be a virtue.

[FlashDangerpants]

Ha! well the joke's on you. At least I now know true darkness, while you non-poopy heads can only dream of soil and chaos.

Perhaps while I'm up here I can slay my spleen with a "?"

[Eodnhoj7]

Ha! well the joke's on you. At least I now know true darkness, while you non-poopy heads can only dream of soil and chaos.

Perhaps while I'm up here I can slay my spleen with a "?"

And the thread on the nature of society is justified...thank you for your help.

[Nick_A]

The simple truth is that we live in dark times.

Ignorance has become understanding...understanding has become ignorance.

What philosophy has once deemed and valued as "truth" has been corrupted by the perpetual chaos of relativism. It is the darkness that not only soils the intellect but is the soil which buries the true light of "reason".

What is one to do in these times? How is one to establish order in chaos? But most importantly what is "truth"?

These three questions must be the seeds planted within the ignorance of these times. They must be watered and taken care of in order so that they may grow. And once they grow, and they will grow, they will produce a tree from which we will gather further fruits. These fruits will nourish us and provide the seeds of "further questions" which must be planted. From one tree comes and orchard, from one orchard a forest, from one forest the ability to start a new civilization...a new way of life.

For we all know what "has been done before" does not work now.

No one starts a riot over a discovery in chemistry. No one storms the streets for justice upon the discover of new "mathematical" equation. But change does come through questioning. Socrates over threw the gods through a simple "?"...why can't we?

What is one to do in these times? How is one to establish order in chaos? But most importantly what is "truth"?

A society existing as the Beast described by Plato lacks conscious choice so conscious ACTION as opposed to mechanical REACTION is only possible for certain individuals. If Socrates was right and the greatest wisdom is coming to realize we know nothing, we cannot be assumed to have a choice to voluntarily establish order or make any collective efforts to establish a conception of truth. We will need a tyrant to establish order and tell us what truth is. In the meantime the Beast will continue to follow natural cycles defined in Ecclesiastes 3

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

[FlashDangerpants]

And the thread on the nature of society is justified...thank you for your help.

Don't be a grumpy bitch. You must realise deep down that you really oversold some fairly low quality content with an absurd amount of pretension. Socrates overthrowing the gods through a simple "?" ... and what you tried to do with soil as verb and noun was just icky.

Plus why do you need to put unnecessary "words" into scare quotes? ... that's just being silly.

As for the planting a tree thing... well you might as well have got that from a cheesy 80s hair metal band

Anyway, now the joke really is on you. Your thread has been adopted by Nick_A who will agree with you in every respect and attempt to expand on it for you. You'll miss me soon because he is the most incredible cretin.

[Lacewing]

What is one to do in these times?

I don't know. So many people seem to be extremists in their own ways, unwilling to consider equality, connection, and broader-thinking. They don't seem to laugh much either.

How is one to establish order in chaos?

Judging from the discussions on this forum, "REASON" is a threat... often ignored, denied, and raged against. The lengths that some people go to, to dance all around it, seems to say, "If I don't make eye contact with it... if I don't acknowledge it... it doesn't exist."

But most importantly what is "truth"?

It's so many things! Truth is the thing that ISN'T hiding or lying. Truth is the thing that HAS happened/occurred. But interpretations and manipulation can distort that as needed to protect/serve the individual. They can create their own truth/reality, and never cooperate with anyone, nor consider anything else.

People who rage against groups of people -- saying that those people are destroying the earth -- make me think of the hysteria and hateful ignorance of The Christian Crusades. Those who claim to be of God, while doing everything opposite of "divine love and understanding" (finding it so easy to hate and destroy), seem oblivious to the part they THEMSELVES are playing in being "soldiers of evil". They feel justified and sanctified, and nothing can convince them otherwise because it's the only way they feel any power or purpose... and they're not going to give that up. Who would they be without it?

But change does come through questioning. Socrates over threw the gods through a simple "?"...why can't we?

We sure have tried on this forum! I've seen so many great challenges and questions... which are ignored or responded to with complete manipulation or lies. It's hard to know if people are THAT evil or THAT stupid. I wish I knew what the question was that could shift us all into greater shared wisdom. For some reason, we seem more intent on wrestling like hairy unevolved beasts. Maybe it's more entertaining that way... I don't know.

[EchoesOfTheHorizon]

Socrates didn't overthrow the Gods, damn sure those temples went on for centuries after, what he did was add a few to the mix.

So is the Op saying relativism is causing religion or science (in a grumpy revolutionary, late 19th century European sense that scholastic atheists/communists would proclaim/denounce) to stick around, and that if we just accepted scientific papers presenting ideas in the same format as science papers, something resembling a enlightenment would happen?

I deeply fucking doubt that either way. Most papers are the work of scholastic tenure farmers, get a joke of a peer review at best, and very few, if anyone, reads them. I can write a paper authored by a apparent cat on Dark Matter, say by Professor Me-Ow, visiting professor from Oxbridge University, describing the hydrodynamics of the working of a flushed vs A unflushed toilet being plunged, and the role Dark Matter plays in either case, and the academic community is more likely than not gonna accept this paper as a worthy revelation to the Republic of Science. Science can be every bit of a joke banana republic as religion can be, and they are too often too damn similar in how facts are accepted and asserted. Some very looney shit goes on in both, because we are all looney tunes. Everyone is batshit crazy, convinced they are smart, unique, normal, and got the world view everyone else should have. Hence we disregard almost all the information out there that goes against us. It rarely registers for most (and this includes philosophers) to seek out ideas that can contradict underlining presumptions in long cherished thought. I really don't care much at this point, and while I don't disparage the attempts for a chemist or astronomer to follow in the steps of Descartes in publishing a paper for review..... I note doctors of theology have been doing the same for much longer, giving papers up the chain of command to bishops for review, challenging ideas just as great and influential on our lives (usually of zero influence, just like most scientific papers, destined to achieve nothing).

I don't see the point of attacking relativism here, when the debate is ironically a either or (unless I missed something fundamental). This thread seems to be a either or, siding with one side, attacking relative thinking, but demanding a relative approach to debating it. Kinda fucking screwy, and a alternative of just trusting you on this is even less appealing, especially since I can't quite tell what you want. Are you just ranting against the tendency of some cultural anthropologists and sociologists to disregard differences and controversies? Yeah, annoying, been around for a few centuries (well, closer to a thousand years, if you want to dig into it's roots in Islamic philosophy, but guessing enworld view is Europe), those pot smokers aren't going anywhere, they get a professor's position, and squat on it, refusing to think anymore. I didn't invent the system, many of the big names in philosophy the last few centuries have embraced it in degree. I have a unfinished book I'm reading exploring Jung and Vico in this light. Lots of screwballs followed suit, and few, despite having big names in philosophy, used it right in my opinion. Usually produces a bunch of agnostic fools who loose trust in coming to judgments.

[Nick_A]

Eod

No one starts a riot over a discovery in chemistry. No one storms the streets for justice upon the discover of new "mathematical" equation. But change does come through questioning. Socrates over threw the gods through a simple "?"...why can't we?

Be veeeerry careful here. Only the right questions determined by experts in lunacy are safe. Consider Plato’s observations before going too far:

If the perfectly just (i.e., righteous) man were to come into the world…“He will be scourged, racked, bound. He will have his eyes burned out. And at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled.” Plato's Republic.

If such a person arose in modern society due to the beneficial effects of impartial contemplation and became an influential influence, they would have to be eliminated for disturbing the peace or corrupting the youth of Athens. Sincere impartial questions concerning the human condition must be done in a secure place where the room isn’t bugged. Your safety may depend upon security. Just be PC unless you can be sure you cannot be traced. Then your genius will be proclaimed.

I just initiated a thread on moral relativism vs moral absolutism you may find interesting. It coincides with this thread in that we remain oblivious of the inner direction leading to absolutes or Plato's world of forms. That being the case we live in darkness and void of conscience so must rely on relativism.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23011

[Eodnhoj7]

The simple truth is that we live in dark times.

Ignorance has become understanding...understanding has become ignorance.

What philosophy has once deemed and valued as "truth" has been corrupted by the perpetual chaos of relativism. It is the darkness that not only soils the intellect but is the soil which buries the true light of "reason".

What is one to do in these times? How is one to establish order in chaos? But most importantly what is "truth"?

These three questions must be the seeds planted within the ignorance of these times. They must be watered and taken care of in order so that they may grow. And once they grow, and they will grow, they will produce a tree from which we will gather further fruits. These fruits will nourish us and provide the seeds of "further questions" which must be planted. From one tree comes and orchard, from one orchard a forest, from one forest the ability to start a new civilization...a new way of life.

For we all know what "has been done before" does not work now.

No one starts a riot over a discovery in chemistry. No one storms the streets for justice upon the discover of new "mathematical" equation. But change does come through questioning. Socrates over threw the gods through a simple "?"...why can't we?

What is one to do in these times? How is one to establish order in chaos? But most importantly what is "truth"?

A society existing as the Beast described by Plato lacks conscious choice so conscious ACTION as opposed to mechanical REACTION is only possible for certain individuals. If Socrates was right and the greatest wisdom is coming to realize we know nothing, we cannot be assumed to have a choice to voluntarily establish order or make any collective efforts to establish a conception of truth.
What do we know about technology, hedonism, or just a general reliance on "feelings" alone bringing any form of order or prosperity? Considering this is what modern society is premised on, what truth does it contain?


We will need a tyrant to establish order and tell us what truth is. In the meantime the Beast will continue to follow natural cycles defined in Ecclesiastes 3

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

[Eodnhoj7]

And the thread on the nature of society is justified...thank you for your help.

Don't be a grumpy bitch. You must realise deep down that you really oversold some fairly low quality content with an absurd amount of pretension. Socrates overthrowing the gods through a simple "?" ... and what you tried to do with soil as verb and noun was just icky.

Plus why do you need to put unnecessary "words" into scare quotes? ... that's just being silly.

As for the planting a tree thing... well you might as well have got that from a cheesy 80s hair metal band

Anyway, now the joke really is on you. Your thread has been adopted by Nick_A who will agree with you in every respect and attempt to expand on it for you. You'll miss me soon because he is the most incredible cretin.

Thanks again for the advice considering you are an expert on cretinism.

[Eodnhoj7]

What is one to do in these times?

I don't know. So many people seem to be extremists in their own ways, unwilling to consider equality, connection, and broader-thinking. They don't seem to laugh much either.
Maybe...it is food for thought.

How is one to establish order in chaos?

Judging from the discussions on this forum, "REASON" is a threat... often ignored, denied, and raged against. The lengths that some people go to, to dance all around it, seems to say, "If I don't make eye contact with it... if I don't acknowledge it... it doesn't exist."

That is because we live in a society of perpetual adolescence. We are not aloud to "grow up" even if we wanted to (millenials I am speaking for) and if we do, and I want to emphasize "if", then in general it is a continual fight uphill to maintain any balance.

But most importantly what is "truth"?

It's so many things! Truth is the thing that ISN'T hiding or lying. Truth is the thing that HAS happened/occurred. But interpretations and manipulation can distort that as needed to protect/serve the individual. They can create their own truth/reality, and never cooperate with anyone, nor consider anything else.

People who rage against groups of people -- saying that those people are destroying the earth -- make me think of the hysteria and hateful ignorance of The Christian Crusades. Those who claim to be of God, while doing everything opposite of "divine love and understanding" (finding it so easy to hate and destroy), seem oblivious to the part they THEMSELVES are playing in being "soldiers of evil". They feel justified and sanctified, and nothing can convince them otherwise because it's the only way they feel any power or purpose... and they're not going to give that up. Who would they be without it?

It is not just the Christains, but the Muslims, Buddhists, Scientists, Atheists...etc. It is mankind in general.

But change does come through questioning. Socrates over threw the gods through a simple "?"...why can't we?

We sure have tried on this forum! I've seen so many great challenges and questions... which are ignored or responded to with complete manipulation or lies. It's hard to know if people are THAT evil or THAT stupid. I wish I knew what the question was that could shift us all into greater shared wisdom. For some reason, we seem more intent on wrestling like hairy unevolved beasts. Maybe it's more entertaining that way... I don't know.

In myth Oden attempted to kill the great beast Fenrir (representing greed, etc.) at Ragnarok. He died in the process. Coming back to real life...so did Socrates. Philosophy is just as much about learning how to live as it is to die...in my opinion.

[Eodnhoj7]

Socrates didn't overthrow the Gods, damn sure those temples went on for centuries after, what he did was add a few to the mix.

Considering his students Plato and Aristotle founded philosophies whose premises extended all Western non pagan religion that point can be argued. At minimum he did "corrupt" the youth by helping bring about philosophical schools through his students.

So is the Op saying relativism is causing religion or science (in a grumpy revolutionary, late 19th century European sense that scholastic atheists/communists would proclaim/denounce) to stick around, and that if we just accepted scientific papers presenting ideas in the same format as science papers, something resembling a enlightenment would happen?

Not at all. A strict relativistic approach has ruined religion and science. Again I want to emphasize the word "strict".

I deeply fucking doubt that either way. Most papers are the work of scholastic tenure farmers, get a joke of a peer review at best, and very few, if anyone, reads them. I can write a paper authored by a apparent cat on Dark Matter, say by Professor Me-Ow, visiting professor from Oxbridge University, describing the hydrodynamics of the working of a flushed vs A unflushed toilet being plunged, and the role Dark Matter plays in either case, and the academic community is more likely than not gonna accept this paper as a worthy revelation to the Republic of Science.
I agree...ironically I have had papers rejected for "being too technical" before. That is half of the reason I am here...to "simplify" ideas.

Science can be every bit of a joke banana republic as religion can be, and they are too often too damn similar in how facts are accepted and asserted. Some very looney shit goes on in both, because we are all looney tunes. Everyone is batshit crazy, convinced they are smart, unique, normal, and got the world view everyone else should have. Hence we disregard almost all the information out there that goes against us.
Haha, that is comically true...everyone is a genius in there own mind. "I am alive; therefore I must be smart!" is the motto of everything now.

It rarely registers for most (and this includes philosophers) to seek out ideas that can contradict underlining presumptions in long cherished thought. I really don't care much at this point, and while I don't disparage the attempts for a chemist or astronomer to follow in the steps of Descartes in publishing a paper for review..... I note doctors of theology have been doing the same for much longer, giving papers up the chain of command to bishops for review, challenging ideas just as great and influential on our lives (usually of zero influence, just like most scientific papers, destined to achieve nothing).

Agreed.

I don't see the point of attacking relativism here, when the debate is ironically a either or (unless I missed something fundamental).
Like I said before, or maybe did not word correctly, a strict emphasis on relativism causes an imbalance in the current "cultures" of religion and science. It should be taken down a few "pegs", not eliminated.

This thread seems to be a either or, siding with one side, attacking relative thinking, but demanding a relative approach to debating it.
Not necessarily...to observe a culture whose axioms are based on "relativism" is concrete statement just as arguing everything is "relative" is a concrete statement.

Kinda fucking screwy, and a alternative of just trusting you on this is even less appealing, especially since I can't quite tell what you want.
Trust me on what exactly? Me asking that we should ask more questions in order to deal with the problems we face today? You don't have to trust a question...you just have to question it if you don't agree.


Are you just ranting against the tendency of some cultural anthropologists and sociologists to disregard differences and controversies?
Are you?

Yeah, annoying, been around for a few centuries (well, closer to a thousand years, if you want to dig into it's roots in Islamic philosophy, but guessing enworld view is Europe), those pot smokers aren't going anywhere, they get a professor's position, and squat on it, refusing to think anymore.
Agreed.

I didn't invent the system, many of the big names in philosophy the last few centuries have embraced it in degree. I have a unfinished book I'm reading exploring Jung and Vico in this light. Lots of screwballs followed suit, and few, despite having big names in philosophy, used it right in my opinion. Usually produces a bunch of agnostic fools who loose trust in coming to judgments.

What's the name of it?...I might put it on a reading list.

[Lacewing]

That is because we live in a society of perpetual adolescence. We are not aloud to "grow up" even if we wanted to (millenials I am speaking for) and if we do, and I want to emphasize "if", then in general it is a continual fight uphill to maintain any balance.

Could you expand on this some more? I'm interested to hear what the life experience looks like from the millennial's perspective.

People who rage against groups of people -- saying that those people are destroying the earth -- make me think of the hysteria and hateful ignorance of The Christian Crusades.

It is not just the Christains, but the Muslims, Buddhists, Scientists, Atheists...etc. It is mankind in general.

Yes, I was speaking of ALL people who rage against groups of people. It also applies to political parties, generational divides, territorial divides, etc. The crescendo of madness and lack of reason it can generate is what makes me think of the Crusades -- and it is done with the guise of being supreme and noble, while laying waste to that which it doesn't understand. It seems easier to try to physically destroy that which we don't want to consider and include -- and that just makes us dumber.