Found this online, appears to be a "thesis" of some sort.
Abstract: The principle of the death drive (Thanatos) is understood as a genuine psychic force connected with the mother complex. Destructivity in repetitious form can temporarily emancipate the ego from unconscious dependency in phallic-narcissism. It is present in the immature or fragile personality (the weak ego). Thanatos is unconsciously therapeutic in that it aims at strengthening a frail ego consciousness. It can ward off unconscious wholeness, invariably associated with the Mother archetype, in which the borders of personality are dissolved. Although it serves to avoid regression, destructiveness can become obsessive. The sun god Horus’s perennial struggle against Seth, in Egyptian mythology, illustrates the dynamics of Thanatos. Accordingly, every night Seth defends the sun bark by defeating the negative Mother in the guise of the chaos monster Apophis. Thanks to Seth, the sun of consciousness is restored and can rise again in the morning. In history, phallocentric culture is sustained by Thanatos in its restorative capacity, but this runs counter to the ideals of patriarchal culture, whose guiding star is Horus.
http://mlwi.magix.net/thanatos.htm
Cultural Death Drive
-
EchoesOfTheHorizon
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:08 am
Re: Cultural Death Drive
I know about the basic idea, started reading the paper.... and deem the paper crap.
Before I got into philosophy, I studied military history, as well as tactical and strategic texts, which get pretty philosophic a times (well, the strategic texts at least). I also got into personality typology, and expanded out into psychology.... before I got into philosophy, and one of the first philosophers I encountered was Carl Jung. I can't completely dismiss his archetype theory, given I seen a few growing up in flashes, but at the same time, I don't know what to do with this sort of mumbo-jumbo, like his fear of Woden, linked to Nietzsche, as a recurrence to the culture of war....
Nothing, absolutely nothing in my studies comes close to backing up these ideas, and I have the hardest time discerning a method. If I was to put a brain on a desk, and take a scalpel and show you where the mother archetype is, or how the death drive functions, where would I point? Which minister proposes to the King/President/Prime Minister that foreign policy needs to be realigned with the death drive?
If I look at the idea of say, a pogrom, I have a concrete behavior I can review the characteristics of from several different societies and time periods, cross reference it to battle tactics, when units use similar patterns, or to known psychology or philosophers discussing it, as well as medical texts and court records investigating characteristics associated with this.
I can't do this in general with death drives. People up and kill themselves for a wide range of reasons (not too wide a range, but still big) and I'm loathed to blame just anything for the end we are obviously concerned with.... the death.
People march to war not because of the mother of death, but because of the practice of military cadance, and a obsession of maintaining both discipline and morale. The fog of war helps a lot here, for if they had superman's eyes and could see the battlefields raging far, far away these young troops would not be walking toward it. Even the US army experiences a bunch of AWOLs just days before deployments (many choosing to be jailed) as well as when approaching theater of war but not quite in it, like jumping out in Kuwait and returning back to the states prior to Iraq. I only heard of one soldier in modern times deserting, in a theater of war, and he was from my old unit, Bergdahl.
I don't beleive I've seen anyone actually embrace death, on any side, except for the tendency of Sunni troops (2006-7 coming out of Syria) to use suicide bombers as Point Men for unit formations.... and I don't know how voluntary this is..... once ISIS took over (same places) they had a lot of people defect, thinking they would be soldiers then informed one day they would be a suicide bomber. We have a few cases of guys rethinking this and fleeing back home. The general presumption is that they can die on a abstract level, but it isn't visceral. They haven't really experienced a awareness that the end is really, really close. If you survive that too many times you can become numb to it, but becoming numb to the deepest of fears isn't Thanatos. That's just experience and resiliency, based on past experience.
Suicide bombers do exist, as does the concept of Martyrdom, but it has a hugh cultural backing, intentionally insisted upon by society. This isn't different from American culture promoting the heroism of someone jumping on a grenade when others are around. Islam doesn't differ too much, just in terms of emphasis and skewing of ethics. We in the west support the ideas of last stands to defend others in a retreat (Starship Troopers 2 mocked this phenomena, how it is often done propaganda wise vs the reality of what motivates last stands), leaping on grenades, or attaching meritocracy to heroism.... mostly saving lots of men, defensively or in the offense. These guys sometimes die, sometimes live. Islam accept these ideas, but also has adapted to include random killing of what we would under western just war theory call noncombatants. It is seen in some sects as good. It isn't a purely modern phenomena either, they perfected it in the crusader period, quite elaborately. It needs to be noted they don't think they are facing the end, or think they are in the wrong. They get heaven. A continuation.
Voluntary quarantines of individuals and communities can be a death drive, like ants and bees do when they get sick (keep the sickness isolated from the larger community) but wouldn't call this a death drive, in the same sense of a suicide bomber, or someone doing a incredidably heroic act on a battle field, and can't say they are remotely related to someone jumping off a building in despair, cause they suck at life.
None of that is unified for the most part except in one aspect.... they die. I'm not doing to a say Thanatos is the cause of this all. The presumption of death only exists in some of it, and that presumption can operate completely differently depending on circumstance and type. I would make the worst suicide bomber (never trust a veteran suicide bomber), as I would just refuse to do it. I might hold a gun position against impossible odds for others though. How you rationalize it.... and impossible odds aren't always fatal.
Unless I can see it mapped on a brain, I'm suspicious of modern myth making psychological theories that are this far ranging. I can accept a very particular kind of behavior linked to a myth, but you gotta take a stab at explaining the way it works in the head anatomically. If you can't, it becomes a blind fear like Jung had in regards to Woton. That old Germanic diety didn't force Germany into fighting, the depression coupled War debt, animosity to the allied forces of WW1, and Hitler's beerhall putsch did. It had nothing to do principly with a male preying mantis in Asia having it's head bitten off by a mate. Very, very, very different phenomena.
Before I got into philosophy, I studied military history, as well as tactical and strategic texts, which get pretty philosophic a times (well, the strategic texts at least). I also got into personality typology, and expanded out into psychology.... before I got into philosophy, and one of the first philosophers I encountered was Carl Jung. I can't completely dismiss his archetype theory, given I seen a few growing up in flashes, but at the same time, I don't know what to do with this sort of mumbo-jumbo, like his fear of Woden, linked to Nietzsche, as a recurrence to the culture of war....
Nothing, absolutely nothing in my studies comes close to backing up these ideas, and I have the hardest time discerning a method. If I was to put a brain on a desk, and take a scalpel and show you where the mother archetype is, or how the death drive functions, where would I point? Which minister proposes to the King/President/Prime Minister that foreign policy needs to be realigned with the death drive?
If I look at the idea of say, a pogrom, I have a concrete behavior I can review the characteristics of from several different societies and time periods, cross reference it to battle tactics, when units use similar patterns, or to known psychology or philosophers discussing it, as well as medical texts and court records investigating characteristics associated with this.
I can't do this in general with death drives. People up and kill themselves for a wide range of reasons (not too wide a range, but still big) and I'm loathed to blame just anything for the end we are obviously concerned with.... the death.
People march to war not because of the mother of death, but because of the practice of military cadance, and a obsession of maintaining both discipline and morale. The fog of war helps a lot here, for if they had superman's eyes and could see the battlefields raging far, far away these young troops would not be walking toward it. Even the US army experiences a bunch of AWOLs just days before deployments (many choosing to be jailed) as well as when approaching theater of war but not quite in it, like jumping out in Kuwait and returning back to the states prior to Iraq. I only heard of one soldier in modern times deserting, in a theater of war, and he was from my old unit, Bergdahl.
I don't beleive I've seen anyone actually embrace death, on any side, except for the tendency of Sunni troops (2006-7 coming out of Syria) to use suicide bombers as Point Men for unit formations.... and I don't know how voluntary this is..... once ISIS took over (same places) they had a lot of people defect, thinking they would be soldiers then informed one day they would be a suicide bomber. We have a few cases of guys rethinking this and fleeing back home. The general presumption is that they can die on a abstract level, but it isn't visceral. They haven't really experienced a awareness that the end is really, really close. If you survive that too many times you can become numb to it, but becoming numb to the deepest of fears isn't Thanatos. That's just experience and resiliency, based on past experience.
Suicide bombers do exist, as does the concept of Martyrdom, but it has a hugh cultural backing, intentionally insisted upon by society. This isn't different from American culture promoting the heroism of someone jumping on a grenade when others are around. Islam doesn't differ too much, just in terms of emphasis and skewing of ethics. We in the west support the ideas of last stands to defend others in a retreat (Starship Troopers 2 mocked this phenomena, how it is often done propaganda wise vs the reality of what motivates last stands), leaping on grenades, or attaching meritocracy to heroism.... mostly saving lots of men, defensively or in the offense. These guys sometimes die, sometimes live. Islam accept these ideas, but also has adapted to include random killing of what we would under western just war theory call noncombatants. It is seen in some sects as good. It isn't a purely modern phenomena either, they perfected it in the crusader period, quite elaborately. It needs to be noted they don't think they are facing the end, or think they are in the wrong. They get heaven. A continuation.
Voluntary quarantines of individuals and communities can be a death drive, like ants and bees do when they get sick (keep the sickness isolated from the larger community) but wouldn't call this a death drive, in the same sense of a suicide bomber, or someone doing a incredidably heroic act on a battle field, and can't say they are remotely related to someone jumping off a building in despair, cause they suck at life.
None of that is unified for the most part except in one aspect.... they die. I'm not doing to a say Thanatos is the cause of this all. The presumption of death only exists in some of it, and that presumption can operate completely differently depending on circumstance and type. I would make the worst suicide bomber (never trust a veteran suicide bomber), as I would just refuse to do it. I might hold a gun position against impossible odds for others though. How you rationalize it.... and impossible odds aren't always fatal.
Unless I can see it mapped on a brain, I'm suspicious of modern myth making psychological theories that are this far ranging. I can accept a very particular kind of behavior linked to a myth, but you gotta take a stab at explaining the way it works in the head anatomically. If you can't, it becomes a blind fear like Jung had in regards to Woton. That old Germanic diety didn't force Germany into fighting, the depression coupled War debt, animosity to the allied forces of WW1, and Hitler's beerhall putsch did. It had nothing to do principly with a male preying mantis in Asia having it's head bitten off by a mate. Very, very, very different phenomena.
Re: Cultural Death Drive
It's like the professor when asked what makes a person sleepy on ether. He said 'it's soporific!'
Likewise, asking what makes us die or commit suicide can be glibly answered 'the Death Drive!'
Likewise, asking what makes us die or commit suicide can be glibly answered 'the Death Drive!'
Re: Cultural Death Drive
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:30 am I know about the basic idea, started reading the paper.... and deem the paper crap.
Before I got into philosophy, I studied military history, as well as tactical and strategic texts, which get pretty philosophic a times (well, the strategic texts at least).
Philosophy is the "truest" of the sciences and arts, hence why we are all "here".
I also got into personality typology, and expanded out into psychology.... before I got into philosophy, and one of the first philosophers I encountered was Carl Jung. I can't completely dismiss his archetype theory, given I seen a few growing up in flashes, but at the same time, I don't know what to do with this sort of mumbo-jumbo, like his fear of Woden, linked to Nietzsche, as a recurrence to the culture of war....
I believe the argument has "merit" however is one degree among many which explains the current atmosphere.
Nothing, absolutely nothing in my studies comes close to backing up these ideas, and I have the hardest time discerning a method. If I was to put a brain on a desk, and take a scalpel and show you where the mother archetype is, or how the death drive functions, where would I point? Which minister proposes to the King/President/Prime Minister that foreign policy needs to be realigned with the death drive?
Military philosophy, does not delve into the spiritual or sexual aspects completely. However it does stem from them. Militaries are formed from people, people are people however.
If I look at the idea of say, a pogrom, I have a concrete behavior I can review the characteristics of from several different societies and time periods, cross reference it to battle tactics, when units use similar patterns, or to known psychology or philosophers discussing it, as well as medical texts and court records investigating characteristics associated with this.
I can't do this in general with death drives. People up and kill themselves for a wide range of reasons (not too wide a range, but still big) and I'm loathed to blame just anything for the end we are obviously concerned with.... the death.
A death drive in itself is an absence of reason, it is in this absence of reason where one has to look at the factors that caused this "un-balance". The inability to detach and form oneself does lead to a form of self-destructive behavior.
People march to war not because of the mother of death, but because of the practice of military cadance, and a obsession of maintaining both discipline and morale.
True, but many of the people who volunteer for the war were not exposed to this prior. What would cause them to embrace a military lifestyle when they were not raised in one?
The fog of war helps a lot here, for if they had superman's eyes and could see the battlefields raging far, far away these young troops would not be walking toward it. Even the US army experiences a bunch of AWOLs just days before deployments (many choosing to be jailed) as well as when approaching theater of war but not quite in it, like jumping out in Kuwait and returning back to the states prior to Iraq. I only heard of one soldier in modern times deserting, in a theater of war, and he was from my old unit, Bergdahl.
I don't beleive I've seen anyone actually embrace death,
Self-destruction does not always equate to a literal death, but the death of a "self" where how they percieve the world forms who they are. This death drive must be viewed in respects to the "annihiliation" of a one's perspective (which is who they are).
on any side, except for the tendency of Sunni troops (2006-7 coming out of Syria) to use suicide bombers as Point Men for unit formations.... and I don't know how voluntary this is..... once ISIS took over (same places) they had a lot of people defect, thinking they would be soldiers then informed one day they would be a suicide bomber. We have a few cases of guys rethinking this and fleeing back home. The general presumption is that they can die on a abstract level, but it isn't visceral. They haven't really experienced a awareness that the end is really, really close. If you survive that too many times you can become numb to it, but becoming numb to the deepest of fears isn't Thanatos. That's just experience and resiliency, based on past experience.
That makes sense, however it does not explain why people commit to this drive "involuntary" . A drive is not always voluntary.
Suicide bombers do exist, as does the concept of Martyrdom, but it has a hugh cultural backing, intentionally insisted upon by society. This isn't different from American culture promoting the heroism of someone jumping on a grenade when others are around. Islam doesn't differ too much, just in terms of emphasis and skewing of ethics. We in the west support the ideas of last stands to defend others in a retreat (Starship Troopers 2 mocked this phenomena, how it is often done propaganda wise vs the reality of what motivates last stands), leaping on grenades, or attaching meritocracy to heroism.... mostly saving lots of men, defensively or in the offense. These guys sometimes die, sometimes live. Islam accept these ideas, but also has adapted to include random killing of what we would under western just war theory call noncombatants. It is seen in some sects as good. It isn't a purely modern phenomena either, they perfected it in the crusader period, quite elaborately. It needs to be noted they don't think they are facing the end, or think they are in the wrong. They get heaven. A continuation.
Voluntary quarantines of individuals and communities can be a death drive, like ants and bees do when they get sick (keep the sickness isolated from the larger community) but wouldn't call this a death drive, in the same sense of a suicide bomber, or someone doing a incredidably heroic act on a battle field, and can't say they are remotely related to someone jumping off a building in despair, cause they suck at life.
None of that is unified for the most part except in one aspect.... they die. I'm not doing to a say Thanatos is the cause of this all. The presumption of death only exists in some of it, and that presumption can operate completely differently depending on circumstance and type. I would make the worst suicide bomber (never trust a veteran suicide bomber), as I would just refuse to do it. I might hold a gun position against impossible odds for others though. How you rationalize it.... and impossible odds aren't always fatal.
Unless I can see it mapped on a brain, I'm suspicious of modern myth making psychological theories that are this far ranging.
Unless I see mapped on the brain the part of the brain that wants the brain mapped I am not fully in support of the empirical-only approach.
I can accept a very particular kind of behavior linked to a myth, but you gotta take a stab at explaining the way it works in the head anatomically. If you can't, it becomes a blind fear like Jung had in regards to Woton. That old Germanic diety didn't force Germany into fighting, the depression coupled War debt, animosity to the allied forces of WW1, and Hitler's beerhall putsch did. It had nothing to do principly with a male preying mantis in Asia having it's head bitten off by a mate. Very, very, very different phenomena.
Re: Cultural Death Drive
And appetites are not drives? I believe, or this is what I got out of it, is that mankind has an appetite for death just as they do for food, sex, status, etc.
It makes some sense considering appetites in themselves are not fully rational but rather observe a lack of "structure" in what constitutes and individual.