Humanism on my mind

[Belinda]

Marjoram_Blues, I am not any sort of specialist. At parties when someone asked me "What do you do?" I was unable to dredge up anything fascinating to tell them except for instance "Yesterday I did learn to crochet ".

Thank you for appreciating my reply to Ken. I have a predatory-reciprocal approach to this group where I can often learn from others, and others are welcome to learn from me.

As for my remarks to Ken about socio-linguistics, that was part of my undergraduate course.

[ken]

Ken, I don't tend to label myself or others. However, this thread is not about why humans categorise. It is about my dealing with the world as it is, with all the crazy nonsense and stuff humans bring to it. Like death rituals; like comforting the living and the dying...

You have your own threads dealing with your own preoccupation.
Please let me have mine.

Thanks to others, I'll respond later.

I certainly never meant to take your thread or derail it anyway.

By asking the clarifying questions I was alluding to the fact that this continual divisive labelling of one's self is what is causing all the crazy nonsense in the world. If there was no labeling of human beings themselves into divisionary catergories, then there would not be half of any of the stuff, to deal with, that there is now.

If you would like Me to leave you here and not ask any furtherbquestions, then I will most happily oblige. But please do not think that I was doing any thing other than just trying to show, in my own asking questions way, what causes the stuff you are trying to deal with. I do this because knowing what the cause is, then you have the solution.

By the way I do not own any threads in this forum.

[ken]

Older human beings try to put any thing into what they already assume and/or believe is the true picture, this includes themselves.

"Older Human Beings" is a category. You are not capable of exercising your own will even when it is the very point you are trying to argue for.

It might appear that way to you. But in order to be able to come to understand all there is, firstly the unresponsible human beings from those that are meant to be the truly responsible ones needs to be separated. Obviously the latter ones are the elder ones. At what age that happens is certainly not up to me to decide. That is a decision for Everyone. Also the human body obviously ages so there is and can be agreement on who are elder ones and who are the younger ones. Unlike the examples I gave where there is no real agreement at all.

That's because it is a bad idea that you didn't think through before hijacking yet another thread to pursue your own narrow obsessions.

I have thought this through far more than you could even yet imagine.

I have NEVER hijacked any thread.

You appear to be so constrained within your own views that you are so far from what the actual truth really is.

What do you even imagine My obsession is?

Inform us of your answer and let us see if you even anywhere close the truth. If you were somewhat even on the right track, then you would know that My "obsession" is as far away in the opposite direction from narrow as can possible be.

[ken]

This brings me to answer Ken's critique of groupiness.

I was never critiquing groupiness at all. In fact I would very much encourage finding others and coming together in peaceful two-way truly open discussion groups. And, what does and will continue to happen is people will gravitate to similar interests. This is nothing new, but the continual seeking to form separatist groups in order to try to put others down is relatively new in relation to the species, human beings.

There are in actual fact two distinct ways to talk to each other. These are called language codes. One sort of group uses one code for the most part and the other sort of group for the most part uses the other code.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/ ... icted-code

Just another set of made up groups in order to try and divide human beings even further. This time with the so called "language codes" people use, they are trying to put one group of people over another group of people, and then people will dispute which group is better.

There are other reasons that people get together. Levels and specialisms of knowledge do in fact vary, and to talk to people who lack one's specialism is laborious and time consuming.

In certain traditional societies where the gender roles are rigidly separated women and men live much more separate lives from each other than we do in European societies.
One other cause for people associating in close and closed groups is the brotherhood among men who have a dangerous occupation e.g. old fashioned coal mining, or front line combat, and who have all experienced the same suffering.

What I was asking and saying was NEVER about coming together and associating. Why that happens is obvious. What I was saying was about how the forming of groups based on different beliefs, is what causes the human divide. Trying to place human beings into sub-categories, which is based on failing foundations anyway, is the wrong thing to do, especially as they create judgemental views that then makes the divide widen.

Replacing one 'set of beliefs' with another 'set of beliefs' has never helped any one. Then looking for a group of people that abides by or follows that set beliefs over another set of beliefs, which a person has now only causes a 'us' and 'them' attitude, which is why there is such division within humanity. Of which the inevitable outcome will come. From a divided humanity obviously a fall will soon come.

Instead of changing beliefs, and then only looking for people with the same beliefs, I recommend staying in the same group of human beings and explaining to them how their beliefs are wrong.

Some people may think that it is impossible, or wrong, to tell people that their beliefs are wrong. If people can not see reason, solely because of their beliefs, then that is the very reason why I prefer to show ALL people that believing any thing is the totally the wrong thing to do in the first place.

I have already shown how and why having believing God is the wrong thing to do. I also say believing any thing else, or changing an already held set of beliefs to some other brlief is just as wrong.

[marjoram_blues]

Ken, I don't tend to label myself or others. However, this thread is not about why humans categorise. It is about my dealing with the world as it is, with all the crazy nonsense and stuff humans bring to it. Like death rituals; like comforting the living and the dying...

You have your own threads dealing with your own preoccupation.
Please let me have mine.

Thanks to others, I'll respond later.

I certainly never meant to take your thread or derail it anyway.

By asking the clarifying questions I was alluding to the fact that this continual divisive labelling of one's self is what is causing all the crazy nonsense in the world. If there was no labeling of human beings themselves into divisionary catergories, then there would not be half of any of the stuff, to deal with, that there is now.

If you would like Me to leave you here and not ask any furtherbquestions, then I will most happily oblige. But please do not think that I was doing any thing other than just trying to show, in my own asking questions way, what causes the stuff you are trying to deal with. I do this because knowing what the cause is, then you have the solution.

By the way I do not own any threads in this forum.

Ken, I understand your concern and appreciate that you are well-intentioned. However, I seem to recall our having had this discussion about your 'solution' before and I rejected your self- label me, with capital M. Also, your continual criticism of the type and style of questioning. You were frustrated at the way questions were put to you. And this is nothing at all to do with my individual desire to ask questions.

Even if you have your way of coping with the world, it is not the same for everyone. Even if everyone in the world accepted your theory re leaving out labels, this would not change human nature. Because naming stuff is what we do to enable communication.
Do you want us to stop talking about everyday life, our different but not necessarily divisive perspectives. Most people recognise we are humans with differing desires and sometimes this is exploited to promote division and war. Not labelling any life aspect would not change this. It would just make it more difficult to communicate and relate.

The 'stuff' all we human beings have to deal with is pretty similar, from birth to death. If you want to live by assuming you, capital Y, are superior in your knowledge which would solve any practical problems, if only we asked you the appropriate clarifying questions and accepted your answer, then I disagree. And now I have said that, you will probably continue to try and clarify your different view of the world/universe. And that is not what I need right now.

If you want to discuss labelling and groups further that is your and others concern and if you wish then start another thread. Or stay on here, and despite me having started a thread concerning humanism, you will make it all about you and your Solution. That is what is meant by a hijacking of a thread.

It can be fun to go off topic and we can all learn from being flexible in our thinking and learning.
However, having started this thread which I do not 'own' as such, there is a still a responsibility, rightly or wrongly, to keep it near enough on track so that people opening it expecting a discussion on Humanism don't have to wade through a pile of off-topicness.

If it does lend itself to a wider, more in-depth, fascinating discussion, then fine. In that case, people really ought to change the subject title of their posts. Another identifying label if you like.
If it turns into another totally different thread, then, taking responsibility, I will ask for this one to be closed. Or not...

I will go elsewhere to explore.
This forum - for me - right now is more of a pain than a pleasure.
Carry on.

[ken]

Ken, I don't tend to label myself or others. However, this thread is not about why humans categorise. It is about my dealing with the world as it is, with all the crazy nonsense and stuff humans bring to it. Like death rituals; like comforting the living and the dying...

You have your own threads dealing with your own preoccupation.
Please let me have mine.

Thanks to others, I'll respond later.

I certainly never meant to take your thread or derail it anyway.

By asking the clarifying questions I was alluding to the fact that this continual divisive labelling of one's self is what is causing all the crazy nonsense in the world. If there was no labeling of human beings themselves into divisionary catergories, then there would not be half of any of the stuff, to deal with, that there is now.

If you would like Me to leave you here and not ask any furtherbquestions, then I will most happily oblige. But please do not think that I was doing any thing other than just trying to show, in my own asking questions way, what causes the stuff you are trying to deal with. I do this because knowing what the cause is, then you have the solution.

By the way I do not own any threads in this forum.

Ken, I understand your concern and appreciate that you are well-intentioned. However, I seem to recall our having had this discussion about your 'solution' before and I rejected your self- label me, with capital M.

If you want to reject what I write or not, then that is fine. I have no issue with your rejection. In regards to using a capital M for Me, what is the issue with that? I do not see you ever saying any thing when I use a capital I, for Me.

Also, your continual criticism of the type and style of questioning. You were frustrated at the way questions were put to you. And this is nothing at all to do with my individual desire to ask questions.

If questions are put forward with a pre-conceived idea of what the answer will be, then I take issue and will criticize. But I do not recall the actual instance you are referring to here. I would have to look over it again to make sense of what you are saying here.

Even if you have your way of coping with the world, it is not the same for everyone. Even if everyone in the world accepted your theory re leaving out labels, this would not change human nature. Because naming stuff is what we do to enable communication.

Even AFTER another said similar to you here and I cleared up that this is NOT, and NEVER has been, about the naming of "stuff", you still write this. What this is about is the attempts at trying to name "human beings" into smaller and smaller groups or sub-categories. Surely you can see and understand this now, especially in light of the response I gave to the other person?

Do you want us to stop talking about everyday life, our different but not necessarily divisive perspectives. Most people recognise we are humans with differing desires and sometimes this is exploited to promote division and war. Not labelling any life aspect would not change this. It would just make it more difficult to communicate and relate.

I really do have a serious issue with being understood. When have I ever said or even mentioned any thing about NOT labeling any thing other than "human beings"? The issue I have is ONLY with trying to label "human beings" ONLY, into smaller and smaller sub-categories, each with newer lablels.

I have even stated that the human brain HAS TO label "stuff"and place them into "compartments" or separate "things" in order for human beings to make sense of and understand the world that it lives in. (I wonder if people really read what I write?)

The 'stuff' all we human beings have to deal with is pretty similar, from birth to death. If you want to live by assuming you, capital Y, are superior in your knowledge which would solve any practical problems, if only we asked you the appropriate clarifying questions and accepted your answer, then I disagree.

This is so far wrong and opposite from what I actually do, I do not know where to start. I have NEVER used a capital Y for you. I have multiple times explicitly expressed that ken is just another one of you. I have also NEVER even used a capital K for ken. ken is more stupid, and less superior in knowledge, than any person alive. This can be and IS proven countless times by the very words here in this forum. Just look back at how many times what i have written here that gets completely misunderstood and misinterpreted to the most opposite of extremes. i appear to have less ability of communicating and being understood than a rock does most times.

It is the One, within each of you (marjoram_blues and ken included), that is superior in knowledge that WILL solve any and ALL practical problems. That One is I, which is within marjoram_blues equally as I am in ALL human beings. Asking ANY clarifying question is appropriate but what is not appropriate is asking with the answer already being assumed. This is where it can get to tricky to explain properly and be understood clearly.

And now I have said that, you will probably continue to try and clarify your different view of the world/universe. And that is not what I need right now.

Then we will leave it.

If you want to discuss labelling and groups further that is your and others concern and if you wish then start another thread. Or stay on here, and despite me having started a thread concerning humanism, you will make it all about you and your Solution. That is what is meant by a hijacking of a thread.

The word 'humanism' is what brought up the issue with labeling. 'Humanism' is just another label that human beings try and categorize themselves into, as long as a human being has a particular 'set of beliefs' then they can "belong" to this group, a particular 'set of beliefs' is what the label 'humanism' holds onto. Although the exact definition of 'humanism' has and never will be accepted and agreed upon, human beings will try and find a particular set of beliefs that will show them the truth that they are seeking. But this will never happen because people try and change the definition of 'humanism' to suit and fit into their already held set of beliefs of the world.

You seemed to want help in finding a 'humanist' group. I have just, very unsuccessfully, some clarifying questions. I tried to get you to see that by changing one set of beliefs for another will never help you. I did this by just asking you the questions what is wrong with just being a human being, with thoughts and feelings? The answer is either nothing or there is some thing wrong with this, thus that is why you are seeking to belong some where. I was asking that hoping you might see by yourself, when you answered, that there is nothing with just being a human being, what the truth is by yourself.

This would then lead onto to more and more, which is a far quicker and more progressive way to move forward to finding and seeing the truth of things by yourself. Trying to place one's self into more and more sub-categories, in the hope of feeling like "I fit in here", does not in any way help in detaching one's self, which is what is truly need to find who one actually is and where they truly are and fit into perfectly.

It can be fun to go off topic and we can all learn from being flexible in our thinking and learning.
However, having started this thread which I do not 'own' as such, there is a still a responsibility, rightly or wrongly, to keep it near enough on track so that people opening it expecting a discussion on Humanism don't have to wade through a pile of off-topicness.

When I said I do not own a thread here in this forum, I meant I have never started a thread here. (Just more evidence of how absolutely useless i am at expressing clearly in order to be understood fully).

The very search for 'humanism', with its specific set of views, will not help you find what it is that you are looking for. Just plain old honest, rational answers given to clarifying questions, however, willr guide you directly to that what it is that you truly want and desire and are looking for. By the way this asking for clarification and truly honest answering back, which leads to ALL the answers being found, can be done within one human body without any other human being needed. Honesty is the only thing needed, and is the key to unlocking ALL the mysteries of Life.

If it does lend itself to a wider, more in-depth, fascinating discussion, then fine. In that case, people really ought to change the subject title of their posts. Another identifying label if you like.
If it turns into another totally different thread, then, taking responsibility, I will ask for this one to be closed.

I will go elsewhere to explore.
This forum - for me - right now is more of a pain than a pleasure.
Carry on.

[marjoram_blues]

OK, I apologise for not reading your words with care. I appreciate that your intentions are good.
I also understand that even if I found a humanist group near me and there were members I could relate to, it would not necessarily be helpful.
Probably my participation in this forum is not helpful either.
Thanks for clarification.

Best wishes.

[ken]

OK, I apologise for not reading your words with care. I appreciate that your intentions are good.
I also understand that even if I found a humanist group near me and there were members I could relate to, it would not necessarily be helpful.
Probably my participation in this forum is not helpful either.
Thanks for clarification.

Best wishes.

My goal coming here in this forum was and still is to learn how to express better. Obviously if you have understood Me better this time, even if it is just the slightest bit better, then you being here in this forum HAS BEEN OF GREAT HELP, to Me. If it was not for you and your replies, then I would not have learned how to express better now. Thank you very much.

I am not sure if this will be any help but, to Me, there is absolutely no harm whatsoever to going to new groups and having discussions with new people. Just this, in of itself, can be of the greatest help, and of course people with similar interests makes for much more enjoyable time than with groups of opposing views. I just meant, and I think you understand this now anyway, that if you are just going to look for answers from others, then that will not necessarily help you find the answers that you are looking for. Also, the changing of a set of beliefs to fit in with others and "their" group also will not necessarily be much help to you.

What I am trying to say is ALL the help you NEED in order to find answers is within you. You do not have to go far to get help because it is your true Self that already has ALL the answers, and right where you are now is where you are meant to be anyway. The true Self knows where you are meant to be. Also, depending on what actual help you are seeking from a group dictates how much help or not you will actually get from them.

I know I am very rarely understood in this forum, and this is of no fault of any one else, but if you leave here now that will be very unhelpful for Me. It is you that is helping Me now to better express more succinctly and clearly.

[Belinda]

Ken, you write quite well, but your attitude is that of an arrogant twit and is holding you back.

[ken]

Ken, you write quite well, but your attitude is that of an arrogant twit and is holding you back.

Thank you for your honesty.

I was not aware I come across like that.

I certainly do NOT have that attitude, as any one offline who knows me would not say that.

But I guess I do not seek be challenged so much in the offline world.

I know this would be a very obvious answer to you and so probably comes across as a very silly question, but I do not have the advantage from the other side like you have, what is it exactly that I am doing that makes me look like an arrogant twit?

I could assume what part of it is but I prefer to hear and find out the truth first, and please do not hold back at all. I can not see my attitude without you being a mirror for me.

[marjoram_blues]

In the end, what kind of a funeral would you like?

[marjoram_blues]

I note that you say you have never started a thread?
Why is that?
Do you know how?

It would help you outline the major concerns as expressed on this thread.
It would prevent accusations of you being a thread hijacker, intent only on own agenda.
It would help define and clarify your thoughts. Writing things out tends to do that...when you get feedback it helps you see where to improve.

Try it?

[Walker]

My goal coming here in this forum was and still is to learn how to express better.

This can be further reduced to:

- keep doing the same thing, over and over, i.e., practicing the same scales.
or ...
- try something new.

You know, they say brevity is the spice of life.

Try saying everything you have to say in a few words.
For practice.
In the quest for better expression.
Try saying it in six. Words.

[ken]

I note that you say you have never started a thread?

That is right.

Why is that?

I am not here to be heard and understood, just to learn.

Do you know how?

Not now, but if I looked into I am pretty sure I could work it out.

It would help you outline the major concerns as expressed on this thread.

But in order to explain fully the major concerns here I first need to fully explain some thing else prior, which needs to have some thing else prior fully explained in order to understand that fully, et cetera, et cetera. There is just way to much to explain in order for everything to be fully understood. This place is not the right place for this.

It would prevent accusations of you being a thread hijacker, intent only on own agenda.

Accusations are one thing and can be made as many times as they want. The actual truth is what is important.

That was the first time being accused of that if I recall correctly. It is one thing to be accused of some thing, but to see how much actual truth is in it will be interesting to see. We will have to wait and see what the actual perceived "obsession" is meant to be first. This will then lead onto to seeing if there is any truth or not in the other accusation of hijacking yet another thread to pursue that alleged narrow obsession. I am very interested in seeing what my own agenda is meant to be, as perceived from others.

It would help define and clarify your thoughts. Writing things out tends to do that...

There is just way to much for a forum site.

when you get feedback it helps you see where to improve.

Try it?

Yes I might one day. But I can also get help to improve from other, unexpected, places, just like I have gotten and am getting in this thread.

[ken]

My goal coming here in this forum was and still is to learn how to express better.

This can be further reduced to:

- keep doing the same thing, over and over, i.e., practicing the same scales.
or ...
- try something new.

You know, they say brevity is the spice of life.

Try saying everything you have to say in a few words.
For practice.
In the quest for better expression.
Try saying it in six. Words.

I can not even ask, How do I even begin to explain how the Mind and the brain works? in just six words.

What do you even think it is that I want to say?

You try saying everything you have to say in just a few words. I will even let you use more than six words.