Einstein and the Cosmic Man

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The power of words

Post by Harbal »

marjoram_blues wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:24 am
A discussion on what constitutes online abuse, causes and effects; the power and strength of words might prove interesting.
Yes, I think it would be interesting, someone should start one.
marjoram_blues
Posts: 1629
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: The power of words

Post by marjoram_blues »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:31 am
marjoram_blues wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:24 am
A discussion on what constitutes online abuse, causes and effects; the power and strength of words might prove interesting.
Yes, I think it would be interesting, someone should start one.
Probably not on here. There's plenty of information out there, for anyone at all interested.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The power of words

Post by Harbal »

marjoram_blues wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:39 am
Probably not on here.
Why not?
marjoram_blues
Posts: 1629
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: The power of words

Post by marjoram_blues »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:50 am
marjoram_blues wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:39 am
Probably not on here.
Why not?

Go for it, if you have the time, energy and inclination to start a serious thread.
I've had enough of the PN forum, right now.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Belinda »

Harbal wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:02 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:46 am He could not abuse me, for instance, as he has no power over me,
He has no power in any respect, that's probably where all this is stemming from: feelings of impotence.
I think that distribution of power in a society is the crucial point where dissatisfaction erupts. People get their feelings of being powerful from various sources. Nick gets his feeling of power (I take from what Harbal says ) from his attempts to be an adjunct of Simone, or Einstein. Some people get their feeling of power from a religious creed which places them in the company of the 'good'. Others get their feeling of power from their status, and faithfulness to that status, in a traditional family. Others get their feeling of powerfulness from their achievements in the world of work. Others get it from achieving popular celebrity. Some people get their feeling of power from being an adjunct to a powerful person such as a spouse, or some popular, political, or religious celebrity, e,g, Nick does this when he feels empowered from what he thinks Einstein , or Simone, stands for.

Nick also gets some perceived power from being an enemy of the Great Beast. As Greta has pointed out, Nick has mis-identified the Great Beast.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Belinda »

PS What Marjoram_blue neatly referred to as "the Hollywood problem" is a true manifestation of the Great Beast. I'd claim. The presumption of male power. The men in my personal life whom I admire and trust are men who have the universal virtues that are mutual to both sexes. The culture has harnessed men to the added and unnecessary load of being expected , because they are biological males, of being efficient, sexual athletes, always reliable, unyielding in battle,and strong-minded. Truly, the feminism movement supports men too.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 9556
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Harbal »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:16 am Nick also gets some perceived power from being an enemy of the Great Beast
It seems to me that any feelings of power Nick may have acquired come entirely from our engagement with him, I think the fact that he's hooked so many in has given him a perceived sense of legitimacy. He's cottoned on to the fact that by being completely impervious to reason he can drive people to keep coming back out of sheer exasperation. That's a kind of control. He didn't feel he had any power back when no one took him seriously and he was constantly throwing tantrums and complaining to the mods. Now he sees himself as a lone hero standing firm against the forces of evil and the more hostile attention he gets the more that delusion is reinforced. Arguing with him is just feeding his growing sense of self importance. To put it in layman's terms, the guy is a complete crackpot.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
But Nick's posts are not concealed, unless he has been abusing people in personal messages, Nick's posts are open to us and anyone else who cares to read them.

I have looked carefully at Nick's posts, and when he does abuse what he is abusing is ideas not persons. To what extent are our online, Philosophy Now personas , representative of the flesh and blood individuals? True, we select what we post, otherwise our posts would possibly be streams of consciousness, which is a genre that takes a lot of talent to be intelligible. I cannot see that it's in Nick's power to abuse the real people . He could not abuse me, for instance, as he has no power over me, and also I welcome a safe opportunity to uncover unreason. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel that these forums do actually help me to sort out my ideas.
Of course they are not concealed. I quote others to avoid being considered the source for the great ideas concerning the human condition and conscious evolution.

They are opposed by the emotional states enabling secular intolerance of ideas threatening its supremacy. Is there anything intellectually so horrible about what Einstein has introduced copied in the OP? No. But these ideas are emotionally disturbing and people react against them emotionally.

How can I respond to Arising concerning education. He still believes that education is about what should be taught and those like Einstein know education is about providing the conditions where learning becomes possible. Even recognition of the difference between intuition and analysis would be impossible to explain in a post. How can I explain providing the conditions where the results of conscious attention or the ability to listen when one wishes to emote are provided? If there are enough sufficiently interested in human as opposed to cave education would be a meaningful discussion. As it stands now, discussing Plato’s concept of education would be emotionally blown off of the forum.

This complaint calling ideas abuse is both common and dangerous as it is taking place in universities. Can you imagine what it must feel like to need a “safe place” to hide from the abuse of ideas inspiring one to think? It seems impossible until you learn it is happening now.
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:10 pmThey are opposed by the emotional states enabling secular intolerance of ideas threatening its supremacy. Is there anything intellectually so horrible about what Einstein has introduced copied in the OP? No. But these ideas are emotionally disturbing and people react against them emotionally.


You know very well that the objections are to you, not Einstein. It's simply dishonest of you.

First, you pretend that objections to your nonsense are the same as objecting to Einstein's genius. Your next mistake is then appealing to authority. You need to do more than copy and paste quotes from people smarter than you are - you need to analyse the ideas, and your analyses are biased and full of wishful thinking.

These flaws are present in every post you make, so many that people only bother to correct your most stupid or jaundiced notions. For instance, let's take the OP:

You provide a quote from Einstein:
The genuine scientist is not moved by praise or blame, nor does he preach. He unveils the universe and people come eagerly, without being pushed, to behold a new revelation: the order, the harmony, the magnificence of creation!
And as man becomes conscious of the stupendous laws that govern the universe in perfect harmony, he begins to realize how small he is. He sees the pettiness of human existence, with its ambitions and intrigues, its ‘I am better than thou’ creed.

This is your blindly unaware interpretation of the above:
Nick_A wrote: This is the beginning of cosmic religion within him; fellowship and human service become his moral code. Without such moral foundations, we are hopelessly doomed.


Here you position yourself above Einstein, as if proudly watching a little protégé developing.

In truth, Einstein was directly rejecting theocratic intolerance - he is your enemy. This is about humans seeing their smallness as opposed to your grandiose notions.

As for pettiness, your lawyer-style lies and gaming are right up there with your hero, Trump (whom Einstein would have abhorred). Trying to get you to speak sensibly about any matter without attitude seems to be impossible.

As for the "I am better than thou" stance rejected by Einstein, you epitomise such an attitude, which is there for all to see.

Einstein - like many scientists - was not consumed with the bickering but with reality. Theists are often the very opposite - unmoved by, and even contemptuous of nature. I cannot make this point strongly enough - it's the crux of a lot that's gone wrong to date, the focus on human social and power games. The observation of Einstein's was basically a precursor for Sagan's "pale blue dot" speech.

Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Nick_A »

Greta, you are not making any sense. This thread isn’t about me. If you object to it you are only objecting to Einstein’ ideas as you must. Assuming the potential of intuitively opening to the experience of higher conscience leads to the natural question of the highest quality of consciousness which suggests the dreaded G word as an ineffable reality. I can see why you must reject it but don’t blame me. I do analyse ideas. The trouble is that you don’t like the conclusions.
This is your blindly unaware interpretation of the above:

Nick_A wrote:This is the beginning of cosmic religion within him; fellowship and human service become his moral code. Without such moral foundations, we are hopelessly doomed.
The trouble here is that I didn’t write it, Einstein did. I wish I did but it is from the OP. Is Einstein misinterpreting himself?
In truth, Einstein was directly rejecting theocratic intolerance - he is your enemy. This is about humans seeing their smallness as opposed to your grandiose notions.
I am the one saying that theocracy as it exists in society is just the secularization of the sacred so nothing can be expected other than secular hypocrisy. I’m the one insisting that we live in illusion attached to the shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave and all the pettiness that results of the human condition. Einstein isn’t my enemy, he is yours since he admits a quality of consciousness beyond anything we are capable of.
As for the "I am better than thou" stance rejected by Einstein, you epitomise such an attitude, which is there for all to see.

Einstein - like many scientists - was not consumed with the bickering but with reality. Theists are often the very opposite - unmoved by, and even contemptuous of nature. I cannot make this point strongly enough - it's the crux of a lot that's gone wrong to date, the focus on human social and power games. The observation of Einstein's was basically a precursor for Sagan's "pale blue dot" speech.
Is the fact that I am open to the ideas offered by the greats of the past really make me better than anyone else? How silly can you get. The problem isn’t theism but rather the rejection and a loss of a quality ideas that enable Man to open to the potential for man’s being.

I even wrote of it in the Articles in Philosophy Now section under the tittle “Rediscovering Plato’s Vision… The problem isn’t multi national corporations. The problem is the devaluation of ideas you seek to further devalue.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Belinda »

Harbal, to be honest, I did not always see Nick or his idea as crackpot , and I had to think about what he had written. After all Plato, and gnosticism, are seriously interesting.

I agree with what you wrote, a few posts ago, that replies to him had added legitimacy to his presence here. That's true, however the principle applies to all of us here. These forums are good for providing a platform for powerless people like Nick, and me, and I guess many of us here. I'd not like to hurt anyone 's feelings by deliberately ostracising them. On the other hand we all have a duty to be courteous.

I believe that mods should err on the liberal side. It could be very hurtful to be the person excluded by a mod whose opinions are respected, rather more hurtful than being insulted by some powerless crackpot. However I had another think about Marjoram's point of view that words can cause actual harm in these forums. Philosophy is such that ideas are often parts of the person's identity. Very few of us here do philosophy as detached academic study of what the great philosophers wrote. I know that I interpret, even when I claim to know something, and honestly, I cannot see that anybody's interpretation can be totally impartial. I am of course unaware of the content of any PMs in exchanges with Nick.

There is a subtle but important difference between cheerful exchanges of insults when the participants are obviously aware of undercurrent of some degree of fellowship, and really hostile insults .I am not a mod here but will look out for such, including myself.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote:
How can I respond to Arising concerning education. He still believes that education is about what should be taught and those like Einstein know education is about providing the conditions where learning becomes possible.
Your own opinions on educating the young are verbal diarrhoea. There is something there but it has no substance. Your condition is chronic.
User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Greta »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:07 amThis is the beginning of cosmic religion within him
Any cosmic religion that you subscribe to - one that that endorses the sexism, racism, warmongering, science denial, environmental vandalism, attacks on equality and the reflexive lying of Trump - is not one that Einstein would want to be associated with.
Nick_A wrote:I am the one saying that theocracy as it exists in society is just the secularization of the sacred
This would be more convincing if your politics did not favour fundamentalist theists and their pet causes.

That religions quickly effectively become political organisations and thus fail to uphold their original ideals is clear. Yet no one has yet devised a religion immune to the dynamics of growth and organisation.
Nick_A wrote:I even wrote of it in the Articles in Philosophy Now section under the tittle “Rediscovering Plato’s Vision… The problem isn’t multi national corporations. The problem is the devaluation of ideas you seek to further devalue.
Your issue is not just multinational corporations, it is huge institutions per se that create specialisation (ie. compartmentalisation) pressure. Also, in terms of the polity, institutions have become ever more important than people.

While we humans pretend to be above nature, the fact is that nature is reorganising once again and we humans at present are amongst the "lucky" ones to be restructured this time around. These changes affect the way people think and react. We cannot wind the clock back to the halcyon years of the iron Age [sic]; rather, today's people are shaped their own times and cultures. Attempts at regression by any culture would be a serious setback for that culture as nations position themselves before the hard times ahead.
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote:
I even wrote of it in the Articles in Philosophy Now section under the tittle “Rediscovering Plato’s Vision…The problem isn’t multi national corporations. The problem is the devaluation of ideas you seek to further devalue.
(Greta replied:)Your issue is not just multinational corporations, it is huge institutions per se that create specialisation (ie. compartmentalisation) pressure. Also, in terms of the polity, institutions have become ever more important than people.

While we humans pretend to be above nature, the fact is that nature is reorganising once again and we humans at present are amongst the "lucky" ones to be restructured this time around. These changes affect the way people think and react. We cannot wind the clock back to the halcyon years of the iron Age [sic]; rather, today's people are shaped their own times and cultures. Attempts at regression by any culture would be a serious setback for that culture as nations position themselves before the hard times ahead.
Greta,your mention of "huge institutions" is too important to not include examples and explanations of these "huge institutions". Is there a thread somewhere about how we proles are impotent against those institutions? Or a thread about how we proles can start to prune , tend , and control these huge institutions. In a post within the last couple of days you have pointed out that Nick has mis-identified the Great Beast.

You are right that regression to earlier forms is a setback, although I'd seriously think about the French Revolution.
How is it that we proles are so splintered into separate groups and not united against the top-heavy ruling elites? Did the ruling elite divide us in its own interest?
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Einstein and the Cosmic Man

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:08 pm Nick_A wrote:
How can I respond to Arising concerning education. He still believes that education is about what should be taught and those like Einstein know education is about providing the conditions where learning becomes possible.
Your own opinions on educating the young are verbal diarrhoea. There is something there but it has no substance. Your condition is chronic.
This is why education cannot be discussed here. All efforts that are not in accordance with the modern progressive's teaching manual will be considered verbal diarrhea. Negative attitudes make create a non starter for the topic.
Post Reply