Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

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ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:54 am
ken wrote:
Would you like to explain how you can know something and simultaneously know nothing at all
Can I be expected to explain how I can know something and simultaneously know nothing at all
The answer to My very simple question is a very simple yes or no.

You can be expected to do any thing that you like.

I certainly do not expect any thing at all here.

I just ask questions, if you answer or not is your prerogative.

And, that is what you said so only you know if you are able to answer the question or not.
ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:01 pm
ken wrote:
Are you interested in what I say and are others discussing with you here

If not then have you thought about that that might just imply that no one is interested in
what BOTH of us have to say here or did you really only think of this in regards to Me only
Do you not already know the answer to all of these questions
If you do not then why do you not know the answers to them
If questions are asked to you, which obviously only you can know the answer to, then obviously I would not already know the answer to those questions. The reason WHY I would NOT already know the answer to the questions that only you would know the answer to, speaks for itself.
ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:06 pm
ken wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:

Are you controlling all of the thoughts in every head that is seeing these writings right now
Or are you only controlling some of the thoughts in some of the heads that are seeing them
What are the thoughts in that head in regards to your question
Do you not already know what all the thoughts in my head are
Obviously NOT.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:06 pmIf you do not already know then why do you not already know
Because, if they are NOT shared, then I do not see any other way of knowing them.
surreptitious57
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
Why there is no such thing as their minds is because to Me there is only one Mind
Who or what is Me and what is a Mind and why can not minds co exist with the one Mind
How does Me know there is only one Mind instead of many Minds all co existing together
surreptitious57
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
The answer to My very simple question is a very simple yes or no
Is your question so simple or is it actually very hard for me to answer
Can I actually give a clear answer or will it be a confused one instead
surreptitious57
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
I certainly do not expect any thing at all here
And why do you not expect any thing at all here
So were you actually hoping for some thing here
ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:47 pm
ken wrote:
Why there is no such thing as their minds is because to Me there is only one Mind
Who or what is Me and what is a Mind and why can not minds co exist with the one Mind
Now you are getting it. If you do not fully understand or are unclear about what I saying, then just ask clarifying questions.

Who is 'Me' IS the invisible Mind, which transcends ALL things. This 'Me', is the one and only Mind, which is always completely open, and thus has the ability to learn, understand, and reason, ALL things. This 'Me' is the ALL-KNOWING. This 'Me' is also Consciousness and/or Awareness. This 'Me' is the conscience One guiding through inspiration. This 'Me' is the tutor within, or the in-tuition that knows right from wrong. This 'Me' is within ALL things, which obviously includes 'you', and can be heard when not listening to one's own beliefs and assumptions.

What is 'Me' IS every thing. This 'Me' can be witnessed and evidenced by ALL physical things. This 'Me' IS creating, always.

Asking why can not minds co exist with the one Mind is like asking why can not universes co exist with the one Universe? The answer is because even if there were such things as minds and universes, which there is not, by definition they can not co exist.

To Me, 'Universe' IS ALL-THERE-IS, and, 'Mind' IS what allows ALL to be KNOWN. There can only be One ALL-THERE-IS, and, there can only be One that allows ALL to be KNOWN.

That One ALL-THERE-IS is 'Me', the Universe, which can be seen in the physical sense, and, that One that allows ALL to be KNOWN is 'Me', the Mind, which can not be seen in the physical sense.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:47 pmHow does Me know there is only one Mind instead of many Minds all co existing together
Because Me, is the Mind, and there can only be one Me.

If and when every thing can be in agreement and be in acceptance, then that is ONLY when Me KNOWS any thing.

Me knows there is only one Mind and not many minds because 'minds' is just a mistaken word of, and a misgiven word for, thoughts and/or thinking. Every thing can agree that an open Mind allows the learning, understanding, and reasoning of things, which becomes knowledge, or KNOWING. But hardly many people at all can agree on, let alone know, what the Mind actually is. For example, saying the 'Mind' is a function of the brain is not saying what the Mind actually is. It is just saying that the Mind is a function of the brain, which is like saying walking is a function of the legs without saying what 'walking' actually is.
ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:56 pm
ken wrote:
The answer to My very simple question is a very simple yes or no
Is your question so simple or is it actually very hard for me to answer
The question is a very simple one, re-read it again. If it is hard for you to answer or not, only you know that.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:56 pmCan I actually give a clear answer or will it be a confused one instead
You were stating some thing as being true, so if you can give a clear or confused answer, only you know that.

Not until I see the answer could I even begin to assess if it is a clear or confused answer, to Me.
ken
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by ken »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:58 pm
ken wrote:
I certainly do not expect any thing at all here
And why do you not expect any thing at all here
Because I am pretty sure that I not assuming any thing at all here now.

You previously pointing out to Me that My assuming could leave Me feeling disappointed I became more aware of when I was, unintentionally, assuming. So, after I acknowledged that I was actually unconsciously assuming that if you provided an answer to My question that it would somewhat be in relation to the question, I stopped assuming that also.

I try not to assume, thus also not expect, any thing at all, now, when discussing with you.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:58 pmSo were you actually hoping for some thing here
Just hoping to find the right concise words in order to be heard and understood better and more fully.
commonsense
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by commonsense »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm I have often wondered just how powerful language alone can actually be. Is it possible to convince anyone of anything by just saying the right thing?
Language alone cannot change a person's convictions. It is almost entirely the characteristics of the listener that make the difference.
Say, perhaps you want to change a person's position to match that of your own. It is far more important that the intended audience is receptive and collaborative than that the speaker is expressive. Using any words you choose, whether they be right words or not, will not move the individual who is intransigent, bloody-minded or just plain deaf to reason.

Let's look, instead, at the case in which you want to persuade some people to change their feelings or attitude about something, a trailer home for example. People living in trailers have been called trailer trash. Trailer homes do not enjoy a favorable connotation. Now, change "trailer" to "double-wide" and you have something that is confusing but sellable. Change it again to "residential home" and you've named it something that sounds palatable, almost comforting, especially when rolling off a glib tongue. In this case, the audience must be led to a point of willing suspension of their beliefs (that trailer homes are unsavory), or just be naturally gullible.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm Perhaps it's more of a psychological question than a philosophical one, but imagine a machine capable of looking into your brain which knows everything about you, and everything that's ever happened to it. It knows exactly which argumentation styles that are the most convincing to you, your favorite words, your current emotions, and every corollary that follows. Using nothing more than words and talking to you to get you to believe in something, would this machine be able make you believe in anything?
Such a machine is clearly capable of accessing aspects of the listener's psyche. Therefore, it is using much more than words alone.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm If the answer is no, how do you think this affects philosophical arguments? Are some debates simply meaningless to get into with the intent of convincing the other person?
An unfortunate state of affairs is that a philosophical argument leans toward a skirmish, a free-for-all or an argle-bargle, as you might expect due to common usage of the term "argument". However, an alternative definition for an argument is an exchange of views for the purpose of exploring a subject or deciding an issue. The former sounds belligerent, the latter collaborative. I believe that if you try to understand before you try to be understood, the possibility of a collaborative discussion increases.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

commonsense wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:42 pmLanguage alone cannot change a person's convictions. It is almost entirely the characteristics of the listener that make the difference.
Say, perhaps you want to change a person's position to match that of your own. It is far more important that the intended audience is receptive and collaborative than that the speaker is expressive. Using any words you choose, whether they be right words or not, will not move the individual who is intransigent, bloody-minded or just plain deaf to reason.
I agree, though I think this could all still be fit into the subject of "language"
Such a machine is clearly capable of accessing aspects of the listener's psyche.Therefore, it is using much more than words alone.
This is technically correct, and the title of the topic doesn't mean "just" words in such a blanket way. I also mentioned how the machine could forge documents or false quotes from scientific research papers, so my incentive with the analogy of this machine is to make something which in principle, could apply to philosophical and political debate. I think if we were to get into the territory where we say the machine is also able to forge video footage and audio, we're moving away from that principle and the answer becomes slightly more clear. Of course, in principle, normal people can't read the complex neurological pathways of individual's brains and determine all this information about what would be the most efficient way to convince them, but we still could hypothetically convince them.
surreptitious57
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by surreptitious57 »

ken wrote:
To Me Universe IS ALL THERE IS and Mind IS what allows ALL to be KNOWN
Cannot the Universe be the Mind and the Mind the Universe or must they be separate from each other
Did the Universe create the Mind or did the Mind create the Universe or did neither create the other

Can the Universe make a rock so heavy that the Mind would never know how it could ever be lifted
Can a rock know that the Universe and / or the Mind exists and if so how exactly does it know this

Can humans ever know that there is a Mind and if so how exactly can they know this
Are you the only human who knows that the Mind exists or do others also know this

Is human language a problem when it comes to accepting that the Mind exists
Is human thinking a problem when it comes to accepting that the Mind exists
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Dontaskme
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by Dontaskme »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:35 am
ken wrote:
To Me Universe IS ALL THERE IS and Mind IS what allows ALL to be KNOWN
Cannot the Universe be the Mind and the Mind the Universe or must they be separate from each other
Did the Universe create the Mind or did the Mind create the Universe or did neither create the other

Can the Universe make a rock so heavy that the Mind would never know how it could ever be lifted
Can a rock know that the Universe and / or the Mind exists and if so how exactly does it know this

Can humans ever know that there is a Mind and if so how exactly can they know this
Are you the only human who knows that the Mind exists or do others also know this

Is human language a problem when it comes to accepting that the Mind exists
Is human thinking a problem when it comes to accepting that the Mind exists
Two buddhist monks were arguing about subjectivity and objectivity. One asked the other..
''There is a big stone. Do you consider it to be inside or outside your mind?''

One of the monks replied: ''From the Buddhist viewpoint everything is an objectification of mind, so I would say that the stone is inside my mind.''

''Your head must feel very heavy,'' observed one of the monks ..''if you are carrying around a stone like that in your mind.''

.

Words carry illusory weight in a weightless universe.

.
surreptitious57
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Dontaskme wrote:
One of the monks replied : From the Buddhist viewpoint everything is an objectification of mind so I would say that the stone is inside my mind
The stone exists outside of his mind so he is wrong about that. The fact that nothing can be perceived without a mind does not mean it is mind dependent as even mind independent objects can only be perceived within the mind. Perceiving anything without a mind is simply not possible
surreptitious57
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Re: Is it possible to convince anyone with the right words?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Dontaskme wrote:
Words carry illusory weight in a weightless universe
Words might have weight or at least some physicality when they are expressed as a manipulation of sound
But in their purest form they are simply imaginary concepts [ like numbers ] and therefore are weightless
Since one can think up words within ones own mind without actually having to write them or to say them
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